Re: [Videolib] VHS to DVD for classroom use?

From: Merle J. Slyhoff <mslyhoff@law.upenn.edu>
Date: Wed Nov 04 2009 - 11:30:53 PST

Thanks to all for the comments, suggestions and support. Sometimes the best thing is to just find out you're not facing this issue alone - that others are dealing with the same problem.

Merle

*******************************************************************
Merle J. Slyhoff V: 215-898-9013
Collection Development & F: 215-898-6619
Resource Sharing Librarian E: mslyhoff@law.upenn.edu
Biddle Law Library
University of Pennsylvania
3460 Chestnut Street
Philadelphia, PA 19104-3406

From: videolib-bounces@lists.berkeley.edu [mailto:videolib-bounces@lists.berkeley.edu] On Behalf Of Gail Fedak
Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 11:04 AM
To: videolib@lists.berkeley.edu
Subject: Re: [Videolib] VHS to DVD for classroom use?

JoAnn,
What you do before IT pulls the plug is work with your most frequent faculty users to let them know that when the VHS players in their rooms die, you have no control over getting a new or refurbished machine back into their classroom. They'll pursue a discussion with you on their own at that point - and word spreads. You may want to contact your faculty senate president to explore this issue. If you want to pursue a conversion project, you will need to contact each and every copyright holder for permission to convert your VHS collection to DVD. We converted as much of our 3/4" collection to VHS as we could get permission to do so in the early '90s. We had few, if any, feature film titles in the collection at that time, and they were not included in the conversion project. When asked, many of the major educational distributors granted us permission to transfer formats. Some said we could purchase a VHS version at greatly reduced prices, some at moderately reduced prices, some at no price reduction at all, and some just said no. Needless to say it was not rocket science to figure out which ones we were going to keep in 3/4" at that time. That project took over 3 years and involved the director, secretary, cataloger, and a GA devoted only to that project. No small cost on our part. Since then, we have had a handful of independent distributors give us permission to transfer from VHS (and 1 35mm filmstrip) to DVD if we would provide them a copy of the DVD. Obviously they did not care to invest their production dollars in making the transfer themselves. See Jessica's comments on cost incentives! I highly suspect if you present the number of VHS titles you have in your collection to your IT department and tell them that you will pursue getting permission for the university to convert them to DVD (or digital files) if they will (1) provide all the materials and labor to convert formats when permission is received, (2) cover the cost of your personnel's time to upgrade catalog records, labels, and shelving, and physically destroy the VHS once the successful dubbing is complete, and (3) explain to faculty why their favorite titles were not ready yesterday, they would sing a sightly different tune.
Good luck with your project,
Gail

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Gail B. Fedak, Director
Media Resources
Middle Tennessee State University
1301 E. Main St., P.O. Box 33
Murfreesboro, TN 37132
phone 615-898-2899
fax 615-898-2530
email gfedak@mtsu.edu
web www.mtsu.edu/~imr

________________________________
From: videolib-bounces@lists.berkeley.edu [mailto:videolib-bounces@lists.berkeley.edu] On Behalf Of Merle J. Slyhoff
Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 8:18 AM
To: videolib@lists.berkeley.edu
Subject: Re: [Videolib] VHS to DVD for classroom use?
Jo Ann,

I followed pretty much the same steps, showing how many vhs faculty use on a regular basis. Unfortunately I was the last to find out - after they had told the faculty they would gladly convert the vhs tapes they used to dvd. I only heard because a faculty member asked me to send all the vhs tapes she uses to IT for conversion. Needless to say I freaked. But they have more power than I have - what do I do when they really do pull the plug (no pun intended) on vhs? Would I have to contact (if possible) each vhs copyright holder and pay to convert to dvd if no dvd exists?

Merle

*******************************************************************
Merle J. Slyhoff V: 215-898-9013
Collection Development & F: 215-898-6619
Resource Sharing Librarian E: mslyhoff@law.upenn.edu
Biddle Law Library
University of Pennsylvania
3460 Chestnut Street
Philadelphia, PA 19104-3406

From: videolib-bounces@lists.berkeley.edu [mailto:videolib-bounces@lists.berkeley.edu] On Behalf Of Jo Ann Reynolds
Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 1:06 PM
To: videolib@lists.berkeley.edu
Subject: Re: [Videolib] VHS to DVD for classroom use?

Hi Merle,

The issue just came up here. I trotted out some statistics showing the number of VHS on reserve this semester and for the past two years. Turned out to be just over 50%, the IT staff were really surprised at that. It also sparked a discussion among our collections, IT staff, liaisons, and Reserve. Like you, successfully averted for now but pushing for a plan to replace what VHS content we can and stockpile some vcr players.

Jo Ann

Jo Ann Reynolds
Reserve Services Coordinator
University of Connecticut
Homer Babbidge Library
Storrs, CT
860-486-1406
jo_ann.reynolds@uconn.edu

Question Reality

From: videolib-bounces@lists.berkeley.edu [mailto:videolib-bounces@lists.berkeley.edu] On Behalf Of Merle J. Slyhoff
Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 12:53 PM
To: videolib@lists.berkeley.edu
Subject: Re: [Videolib] VHS to DVD for classroom use?

Here's a wrinkle... what do you do when your IT/media department announces they will no longer support VHS and will only have equipment to show DVDs? What happens to all the VHS formats you have that are not available in DVD? Not bringing this up to be difficult. This is an actual scenario that was successfully (at least for the time being) diffused but will no doubt come up again.

Merle

*******************************************************************
Merle J. Slyhoff V: 215-898-9013
Collection Development & F: 215-898-6619
Resource Sharing Librarian E: mslyhoff@law.upenn.edu
Biddle Law Library
University of Pennsylvania
3460 Chestnut Street
Philadelphia, PA 19104-3406

From: videolib-bounces@lists.berkeley.edu [mailto:videolib-bounces@lists.berkeley.edu] On Behalf Of Jessica Rosner
Sent: Monday, November 02, 2009 6:21 PM
To: videolib@lists.berkeley.edu
Subject: Re: [Videolib] VHS to DVD for classroom use?

Gary
The question was can a professor make a DVD of a VHS and the answer is clear no they can't. Section 108 is VERY clear. FYI you can according to 108 make a VHS copy
from a VHS and still use it what you CAN NOT DO is make a DVD from a VHS. There was no suggestion in the first question that the item was in any danger. If you don't like 108 than be my guest and try to get it changed but making a DVD and allowing it to be used in a class is plainly illegal and it DOES ripoff filmmakers. I am not holding my breath for someone who claims they MUST have a DVD to buy the legal copy after they made an illegal one. I remember Dennis saying that one of their biggest problems with KILLER OF SHEEP was first the huge number of ILLEGAL COPIES OWNED BY INSTITUTIONS and then after they released it legally the huge number of illegal downloads many of which were done by academics but hey they had to have it and their need was greater than the rights and livelihood of filmmakers and distributors. If a book was lost from the library and you could not
get replacement would you make xerox and put it on the shelves ? I realize academics pressure librarians and it sounds so nice to make films available but every film ever made or even released may not be available for the academic to use and they sure as heck may not be available in the most CONVENIENT format. You want that copy under 108 ? Well then keep it in VHS or keep it for RESEARCH & PRESERVATION. When you do otherwise you ARE stealing from filmmakers especially independent ones. Not to sound like a broken record but you are free to PRESERVE but you are not free to CIRCULATE outside the library.

On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 6:02 PM, <ghandman@library.berkeley.edu<mailto:ghandman@library.berkeley.edu>> wrote:
Jessica...I shall go absolutely mad.

It's not stealing if you CAN'T BUY THE GODDAMN THING ANYMORE. Show me
where I can buy a replacement at fair market and I'll do it. If you
can't, I'm gonna burn a replacement and use it. The alternative is
letting useful materials crumble.

I am not talking about upgrades!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am not talking about
convenience. I am talking about preserving out-of-distribution works at
physical risk of disintegration.

Gary

> sorry Gary you are not "preserving" anything you are stealing
> So if any film a professor wants to use has not yet been released on DVD,
> just copy it yourself ? That does seem to be what you and Michael are
> saying.
> That part of copyright was in fact put in for PRESERVATION not to give a
> free upgrade or format transfer. It was meant to make sure rare materials
> did not become totally unavailable
> and that is completely different. If you think making DVD copies of films
> you bought on VHS because a company has not been able to invest the
> THOUSANDS of THOUSANDS of dollars ( or tens of thousands depending on some
> films) to do it is not infringing on a market, I can't imagine how you
> expect independent companies in particular to survive. What would be the
> point of even making DVDs if professors and libraries just made their own
> copies under some non existent theory of "fair use" means I get to make
> free
> copies. Are you and Michael seriously arguing that hey just make copies
> and
> don't worry cause no one is getting hurt here. I would like to know. Nice
> that you choose to ignore section 108 because you find it "nonsensical"
> but at least don't pretend what you do is legal or ethical. Let me guess
> you promise to buy a DVD IF the company ever can afford to put it out and
> IF you decide
> the price is reasonable. Don't be surprised when there are no indie films
> coming out and the studios don't bother to release anything that is more
> than 2 years old. Why should they bother if you already made your own copy
> ?
>
> Yep I am nasty tonight because like I have said before I used to have this
> silly idea that librarians were supposed to PROTECT filmmakers and artists
> not abet those stealing their work.
>
>
>
> Greetings from Brooklyn
>
> On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 3:40 PM, <ghandman@library.berkeley.edu<mailto:ghandman@library.berkeley.edu>> wrote:
>
>> OK...gonna go out on a limb here.
>>
>> The "in-house" provision of 108 is so unspeakably stupid and nonsensical
>> that I've chosen to largely ignore it: why in the world would one make
>> a
>> copy of a decomposing work only to have to circulate the original for
>> classroom use (and not the more robust copy). Stupid. I urge similar
>> civil disobedience by my colleagues... We're not talking about
>> infringing
>> on ANYONE'S rights or ANYONE's market: We're talking about preserving
>> the
>> cultural record.
>>
>> Gary
>>
>>
>> > Making VHS to DVD copies is illegal period. The ONLY exemption IS"
>> > archival"
>> > and that is in section 108. In that case IF the copy were essentially
>> > decomposing you could make a digital copy but THAT copy can NOT leave
>> the
>> > library. FACE TO FACE exemption does allow you to use whole works in a
>> > class
>> > but those works must be LEGAL copies and transfer is not a legal copy.
>> >
>> > FYI the SCMS "best use" was prepared by a bunch of academics and has
>> no
>> > legal standing. It says for instance you can take a copy of a film
>> your
>> > cousin taped of Z channel 25 years ago and use that ( I am
>> exaggerating
>> > for
>> > effect but that is what there "interpretation" permits). Yes I know
>> there
>> > is
>> > no legal ruling but a little common sense with that document would
>> help.
>> > Again by their interpretation you really would not have to buy
>> anything ,
>> > just tape it off TV and use that.
>> >
>> > Snarky mood today but go ahead and bitch I have to go to Brooklyn and
>> > won't
>> > be on line
>> >
>> > On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 3:10 PM, Elizabeth Kielley
>> > <ekielley@messiah.edu<mailto:ekielley@messiah.edu>>wrote:
>> >
>> >> I am in discussion with a faculty member who is certain that for
>> >> face-to-face teaching, he can make a DVD copy of a VHS as long as it
>> was
>> >> only used for teaching. I am disagreeing due to my understanding we
>> >> can't
>> >> make a copy, even for preservation. Please let me know. I know this
>> >> has
>> >> been discussed before but I am attaching his rationale:
>> >>
>> >> "Currently, educators in the face-to-face teaching context enjoy more
>> >> latitude and face fewer restrictions under the face-to-face exception
>> >> than
>> >> do their counterparts in the distance education context under the
>> online
>> >> distance education exception. For example, while educators in the
>> online
>> >> distance education context may only use "reasonable and limited
>> >> portions" of
>> >> an audiovisual work, educators in the face-to-face context face no
>> such
>> >> limitation.
>> >> *Principle IV Online Distance Education*
>> >> =========================================
>> >> The restrictions on transferring media from analog to digital apply
>> >> explicitly to online courses, but it's not clear if they apply in
>> >> face-to-face teaching . That's why I'm pretty sure that we can make
>> >> DVDs
>> >> from VHS tapes for classroom use (perhaps these could not be checked
>> out
>> >> by
>> >> students for personal viewing unless they were in the class). Let me
>> >> know
>> >> what you think!"
>> >>
>> >> AND
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> "The critical distinction here is "for classroom face-to-face
>> teaching",
>> >> not just for preservation purposes. The reason I included the second
>> >> quote
>> >> from the SCMS document is because it states that while online
>> >> instructors
>> >> are limited to ""reasonable and limited portions" of an audiovisual
>> >> work,
>> >> educators in the face-to-face context face no such limitation." So
>> >> copying
>> >> of entire works for specific employ in face-to-face teaching would
>> not
>> >> be
>> >> restricted as long as they were ONLY USED in that context.
>> >>
>> >> That was my thinking from what the SCMS states. Doe this make sense
>> to
>> >> you?"
>> >>
>> >> So please let me know if I'm wrong.
>> >>
>> >> Liz
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Liz Kielley
>> >> ekielley@messiah.edu<mailto:ekielley@messiah.edu>
>> >> Librarian/Technical Services Coordinator
>> >> Messiah College
>> >> Grantham, PA 17027
>> >> 717-691-6006 x3850
>> >> 717-691-6042 (FAX)
>> >>
>> >> VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of
>> >> issues
>> >> relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic
>> >> control,
>> >> preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in
>> libraries
>> >> and
>> >> related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an
>> >> effective
>> >> working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of
>> communication
>> >> between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and
>> >> distributors.
>> >>
>> >>
>> > VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of
>> > issues relating to the selection, evaluation,
>> acquisition,bibliographic
>> > control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats
>> in
>> > libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will
>> serve
>> > as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a
>> channel
>> of
>> > communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video
>> > producers and distributors.
>> >
>>
>>
>> Gary Handman
>> Director
>> Media Resources Center
>> Moffitt Library
>> UC Berkeley
>>
>> 510-643-8566
>> ghandman@library.berkeley.edu<mailto:ghandman@library.berkeley.edu>
>> http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/MRC
>>
>> "I have always preferred the reflection of life to life itself."
>> --Francois Truffaut
>>
>>
>> VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of
>> issues
>> relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic
>> control,
>> preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries
>> and
>> related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an
>> effective
>> working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication
>> between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and
>> distributors.
>>
> VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of
> issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic
> control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in
> libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve
> as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of
> communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video
> producers and distributors.
>

Gary Handman
Director
Media Resources Center
Moffitt Library
UC Berkeley

510-643-8566
ghandman@library.berkeley.edu<mailto:ghandman@library.berkeley.edu>
http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/MRC

"I have always preferred the reflection of life to life itself."
--Francois Truffaut

VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and distributors.

VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and distributors.
Received on Wed Nov 4 11:32:31 2009

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