Re: [Videolib] VHS to DVD for classroom use?

From: Jessica Rosner <maddux2014@gmail.com>
Date: Mon Nov 02 2009 - 19:29:21 PST

If I thought Gary was just talking about old educational films you can't
even track down I would not care but he is not being specific and you KNOW
Michael Brewer does not mean that and most importantly the person who first
asked the question almost surely does not either. One fascinating thing when
I was at an ALA session, NYU is working on a project about how to deal with
rare materials in university libraries for
preservation, archiving etc. So far so good though one of the things
mentioned were some French avant Garde shorts in 16mm from a library in New
Orleans and the titles did not seem so rare to me but I digress. A librarian
asked him what methods would one use to try to contact the rights holder for
permission to preserve the rare material on a presumably difficult format
and he answered one would only check OCLC , Worldcat etc because HE WAS ONLY
INTERESTED TO SEE IF THE MATERIAL WAS AVAILABLE ELSEWHERE and YOU DID NOT
WANT TO FIND THE RIGHTS HOLDER BECAUSE THEY MIGHT SAY NO to a request to
copy it. I found that pretty astounding. Basically a lot of universities are
streaming whole films and others are making copies as they wish of anything
and everything they can and I think this is growing exponentially. I am
sure you are aware how devastating this is on small companies. I am
sympathetic pressures librarians face from profs and it seems like the
greater danger now is coming from administrations which approve this stuff
 but the result is very bad for filmmakers & distributors but hey what to I
care I am not one.

On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 10:03 PM, Dennis Doros <milefilms@gmail.com> wrote:

> Jessica,
>
> Well, I was mostly joking before, but...
>
> You know I adore you and don't even consider the Cubs worth considering (Hi
> from St. Louis right across from the baseball park!), but I think it just
> means that this conversation has taken on bizarre turns -- I'm actually
> siding with Gary on the common sense scenario since he is mainly talking
> about educational docs that have fallen by the wayside such as anything from
> Films Inc's educational division for example and not about features or
> anything in distribution -- and I didn't want my history with KILLER OF
> SHEEP to be misunderstood.
>
> Actually, quite a few libraries had legal copies of KOS that they had
> bought from Third World Newsreel. Individuals then bootlegged them for their
> own uses. I didn't suggest that libraries dubbed them and didn't buy my copy
> when it came out. Not as many of you bought it as you should have ;-) but
> there were plenty.
>
> It's the illegal download crap that came from those VHS bootlegs that hurt.
>
> Dennis
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 8:13 PM, Jessica Rosner <maddux2014@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> Ok I guess that means Dennis thinks it is ok to make DVDs of any Milestone
>> titles not yet on DVD.( I am kidding of course I will now duck and go back
>> to the World Series which does not feature either the Cubs or the Mets)
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 7:51 PM, Dennis <milefilms@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hey, don't bring me into the arguement. And I do expect to see everybody
>>> who's doing preservation at the AMIA conference on Wednesday. :-)
>>>
>>> I take one afternoon off to fly and all hell breaks loose.
>>> Dennis D
>>> Milestone
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>> On Nov 2, 2009, at 5:21 PM, Jessica Rosner <maddux2014@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Gary
>>> The question was can a professor make a DVD of a VHS and the answer is
>>> clear no they can't. Section 108 is VERY clear. FYI you can according to
>>> 108 make a VHS copy
>>> from a VHS and still use it what you CAN NOT DO is make a DVD from a VHS.
>>> There was no suggestion in the first question that the item was in any
>>> danger. If you don't like 108 than be my guest and try to get it changed but
>>> making a DVD and allowing it to be used in a class is plainly illegal and
>>> it DOES ripoff filmmakers. I am not holding my breath for someone who claims
>>> they MUST have a DVD to buy the legal copy after they made an illegal one. I
>>> remember Dennis saying that one of their biggest problems with KILLER OF
>>> SHEEP was first the huge number of ILLEGAL COPIES OWNED BY INSTITUTIONS and
>>> then after they released it legally the huge number of illegal downloads
>>> many of which were done by academics but hey they had to have it and their
>>> need was greater than the rights and livelihood of filmmakers and
>>> distributors. If a book was lost from the library and you could not
>>> get replacement would you make xerox and put it on the shelves ? I
>>> realize academics pressure librarians and it sounds so nice to make films
>>> available but every film ever made or even released may not be available
>>> for the academic to use and they sure as heck may not be available in the
>>> most CONVENIENT format. You want that copy under 108 ? Well then keep it in
>>> VHS or keep it for RESEARCH & PRESERVATION. When you do otherwise you ARE
>>> stealing from filmmakers especially independent ones. Not to sound like a
>>> broken record but you are free to PRESERVE but you are not free to CIRCULATE
>>> outside the library.
>>>
>>> On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 6:02 PM, < <ghandman@library.berkeley.edu>
>>> ghandman@library.berkeley.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Jessica...I shall go absolutely mad.
>>>>
>>>> It's not stealing if you CAN'T BUY THE GODDAMN THING ANYMORE. Show me
>>>> where I can buy a replacement at fair market and I'll do it. If you
>>>> can't, I'm gonna burn a replacement and use it. The alternative is
>>>> letting useful materials crumble.
>>>>
>>>> I am not talking about upgrades!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am not talking about
>>>> convenience. I am talking about preserving out-of-distribution works at
>>>> physical risk of disintegration.
>>>>
>>>> Gary
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> > sorry Gary you are not "preserving" anything you are stealing
>>>> > So if any film a professor wants to use has not yet been released on
>>>> DVD,
>>>> > just copy it yourself ? That does seem to be what you and Michael are
>>>> > saying.
>>>> > That part of copyright was in fact put in for PRESERVATION not to give
>>>> a
>>>> > free upgrade or format transfer. It was meant to make sure rare
>>>> materials
>>>> > did not become totally unavailable
>>>> > and that is completely different. If you think making DVD copies of
>>>> films
>>>> > you bought on VHS because a company has not been able to invest the
>>>> > THOUSANDS of THOUSANDS of dollars ( or tens of thousands depending on
>>>> some
>>>> > films) to do it is not infringing on a market, I can't imagine how you
>>>> > expect independent companies in particular to survive. What would be
>>>> the
>>>> > point of even making DVDs if professors and libraries just made their
>>>> own
>>>> > copies under some non existent theory of "fair use" means I get to
>>>> make
>>>> > free
>>>> > copies. Are you and Michael seriously arguing that hey just make
>>>> copies
>>>> > and
>>>> > don't worry cause no one is getting hurt here. I would like to know.
>>>> Nice
>>>> > that you choose to ignore section 108 because you find it
>>>> "nonsensical"
>>>> > but at least don't pretend what you do is legal or ethical. Let me
>>>> guess
>>>> > you promise to buy a DVD IF the company ever can afford to put it out
>>>> and
>>>> > IF you decide
>>>> > the price is reasonable. Don't be surprised when there are no indie
>>>> films
>>>> > coming out and the studios don't bother to release anything that is
>>>> more
>>>> > than 2 years old. Why should they bother if you already made your own
>>>> copy
>>>> > ?
>>>> >
>>>> > Yep I am nasty tonight because like I have said before I used to have
>>>> this
>>>> > silly idea that librarians were supposed to PROTECT filmmakers and
>>>> artists
>>>> > not abet those stealing their work.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > Greetings from Brooklyn
>>>> >
>>>> > On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 3:40 PM, < <ghandman@library.berkeley.edu>
>>>> ghandman@library.berkeley.edu> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >> OK...gonna go out on a limb here.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> The "in-house" provision of 108 is so unspeakably stupid and
>>>> nonsensical
>>>> >> that I've chosen to largely ignore it: why in the world would one
>>>> make
>>>> >> a
>>>> >> copy of a decomposing work only to have to circulate the original for
>>>> >> classroom use (and not the more robust copy). Stupid. I urge
>>>> similar
>>>> >> civil disobedience by my colleagues... We're not talking about
>>>> >> infringing
>>>> >> on ANYONE'S rights or ANYONE's market: We're talking about
>>>> preserving
>>>> >> the
>>>> >> cultural record.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Gary
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> > Making VHS to DVD copies is illegal period. The ONLY exemption IS"
>>>> >> > archival"
>>>> >> > and that is in section 108. In that case IF the copy were
>>>> essentially
>>>> >> > decomposing you could make a digital copy but THAT copy can NOT
>>>> leave
>>>> >> the
>>>> >> > library. FACE TO FACE exemption does allow you to use whole works
>>>> in a
>>>> >> > class
>>>> >> > but those works must be LEGAL copies and transfer is not a legal
>>>> copy.
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > FYI the SCMS "best use" was prepared by a bunch of academics and
>>>> has
>>>> >> no
>>>> >> > legal standing. It says for instance you can take a copy of a film
>>>> >> your
>>>> >> > cousin taped of Z channel 25 years ago and use that ( I am
>>>> >> exaggerating
>>>> >> > for
>>>> >> > effect but that is what there "interpretation" permits). Yes I know
>>>> >> there
>>>> >> > is
>>>> >> > no legal ruling but a little common sense with that document would
>>>> >> help.
>>>> >> > Again by their interpretation you really would not have to buy
>>>> >> anything ,
>>>> >> > just tape it off TV and use that.
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > Snarky mood today but go ahead and bitch I have to go to Brooklyn
>>>> and
>>>> >> > won't
>>>> >> > be on line
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 3:10 PM, Elizabeth Kielley
>>>> >> > < <ekielley@messiah.edu>ekielley@messiah.edu>wrote:
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >> I am in discussion with a faculty member who is certain that for
>>>> >> >> face-to-face teaching, he can make a DVD copy of a VHS as long as
>>>> it
>>>> >> was
>>>> >> >> only used for teaching. I am disagreeing due to my understanding
>>>> we
>>>> >> >> can't
>>>> >> >> make a copy, even for preservation. Please let me know. I know
>>>> this
>>>> >> >> has
>>>> >> >> been discussed before but I am attaching his rationale:
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> "Currently, educators in the face-to-face teaching context enjoy
>>>> more
>>>> >> >> latitude and face fewer restrictions under the face-to-face
>>>> exception
>>>> >> >> than
>>>> >> >> do their counterparts in the distance education context under the
>>>> >> online
>>>> >> >> distance education exception. For example, while educators in the
>>>> >> online
>>>> >> >> distance education context may only use “reasonable and limited
>>>> >> >> portions” of
>>>> >> >> an audiovisual work, educators in the face-to-face context face no
>>>> >> such
>>>> >> >> limitation.
>>>> >> >> *Principle IV Online Distance Education*
>>>> >> >> =========================================
>>>> >> >> The restrictions on transferring media from analog to digital
>>>> apply
>>>> >> >> explicitly to online courses, but it's not clear if they apply in
>>>> >> >> face-to-face teaching . That's why I'm pretty sure that we can
>>>> make
>>>> >> >> DVDs
>>>> >> >> from VHS tapes for classroom use (perhaps these could not be
>>>> checked
>>>> >> out
>>>> >> >> by
>>>> >> >> students for personal viewing unless they were in the class). Let
>>>> me
>>>> >> >> know
>>>> >> >> what you think!"
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> AND
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> "The critical distinction here is "for classroom face-to-face
>>>> >> teaching",
>>>> >> >> not just for preservation purposes. The reason I included the
>>>> second
>>>> >> >> quote
>>>> >> >> from the SCMS document is because it states that while online
>>>> >> >> instructors
>>>> >> >> are limited to "“reasonable and limited portions” of an
>>>> audiovisual
>>>> >> >> work,
>>>> >> >> educators in the face-to-face context face no such limitation."
>>>> So
>>>> >> >> copying
>>>> >> >> of entire works for specific employ in face-to-face teaching would
>>>> >> not
>>>> >> >> be
>>>> >> >> restricted as long as they were ONLY USED in that context.
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> That was my thinking from what the SCMS states. Doe this make
>>>> sense
>>>> >> to
>>>> >> >> you?"
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> So please let me know if I'm wrong.
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> Liz
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> Liz Kielley
>>>> >> >> <ekielley@messiah.edu>ekielley@messiah.edu
>>>> >> >> Librarian/Technical Services Coordinator
>>>> >> >> Messiah College
>>>> >> >> Grantham, PA 17027
>>>> >> >> 717-691-6006 x3850
>>>> >> >> 717-691-6042 (FAX)
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion
>>>> of
>>>> >> >> issues
>>>> >> >> relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic
>>>> >> >> control,
>>>> >> >> preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in
>>>> >> libraries
>>>> >> >> and
>>>> >> >> related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an
>>>> >> >> effective
>>>> >> >> working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of
>>>> >> communication
>>>> >> >> between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers
>>>> and
>>>> >> >> distributors.
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> > VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion
>>>> of
>>>> >> > issues relating to the selection, evaluation,
>>>> >> acquisition,bibliographic
>>>> >> > control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video
>>>> formats
>>>> >> in
>>>> >> > libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will
>>>> >> serve
>>>> >> > as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a
>>>> >> channel
>>>> >> of
>>>> >> > communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video
>>>> >> > producers and distributors.
>>>> >> >
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Gary Handman
>>>> >> Director
>>>> >> Media Resources Center
>>>> >> Moffitt Library
>>>> >> UC Berkeley
>>>> >>
>>>> >> 510-643-8566
>>>> >> <ghandman@library.berkeley.edu>ghandman@library.berkeley.edu
>>>> >> <http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/MRC>http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/MRC
>>>> >>
>>>> >> "I have always preferred the reflection of life to life itself."
>>>> >> --Francois Truffaut
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of
>>>> >> issues
>>>> >> relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic
>>>> >> control,
>>>> >> preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in
>>>> libraries
>>>> >> and
>>>> >> related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an
>>>> >> effective
>>>> >> working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of
>>>> communication
>>>> >> between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and
>>>> >> distributors.
>>>> >>
>>>> > VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of
>>>> > issues relating to the selection, evaluation,
>>>> acquisition,bibliographic
>>>> > control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats
>>>> in
>>>> > libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will
>>>> serve
>>>> > as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a
>>>> channel of
>>>> > communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video
>>>> > producers and distributors.
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Gary Handman
>>>> Director
>>>> Media Resources Center
>>>> Moffitt Library
>>>> UC Berkeley
>>>>
>>>> 510-643-8566
>>>> <ghandman@library.berkeley.edu>ghandman@library.berkeley.edu
>>>> <http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/MRC>http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/MRC
>>>>
>>>> "I have always preferred the reflection of life to life itself."
>>>> --Francois Truffaut
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of
>>>> issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic
>>>> control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in
>>>> libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as
>>>> an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of
>>>> communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video
>>>> producers and distributors.
>>>>
>>>
>>> VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of
>>> issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic
>>> control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in
>>> libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as
>>> an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of
>>> communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video
>>> producers and distributors.
>>>
>>>
>>> VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of
>>> issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic
>>> control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in
>>> libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as
>>> an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of
>>> communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video
>>> producers and distributors.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of
>> issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic
>> control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in
>> libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as
>> an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of
>> communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video
>> producers and distributors.
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Best,
> Dennis Doros
> Milestone Film & Video
> PO Box 128
> Harrington Park, NJ 07640
> Phone: 201-767-3117
> Fax: 201-767-3035
> email: milefilms@gmail.com
> www.milestonefilms.com
> www.arayafilm.com
> www.exilesfilm.com
> www.wordisoutmovie.com
> www.killerofsheep.com
> AMIA St. Louis 2009: www.amianet.org
> Join "Milestone Film" on Facebook!
>
> VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues
> relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control,
> preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and
> related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective
> working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication
> between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and
> distributors.
>
>

VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and distributors.
Received on Mon Nov 2 19:29:58 2009

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