Re: [Videolib] VHS to DVD for classroom use?

From: <ben@zeitgeistfilms.com>
Date: Mon Nov 02 2009 - 17:39:53 PST

Gary, I'm not trying to insult librarians but you're getting delusions of grandeur in that your effort to "preserve" these VHS tapes is somehow benefiting our culture and not hurting filmmakers, especially independent and foreign filmmakers whose work is often the subject re-release legal limbo. I was going to bring up the Killer of Sheep case but Jessica beat me to it. I'm not trying to put you down but you don't have the right to generate and circulate your own material like that and that's the end of the story. For example, it really sucks that all of Bruce Weber's films are not on DVD and very hard to find on VHS. At Zeitgeist we have really good quality VHS tapes and I'm sure various libraries do as well. If said library makes their own DVD from the VHS and circulates it (even just to classrooms) then it cuts into the potential profits of a re-release (something that might have been strategized knowing that the films were out of print for so long). And trust me, if Bruce Weber ever caught you doing it, he'd sue you into next year. Again, I'm not trying to be insulting, but I think this does warrant a serious debate over who has the authority to do what. Benjamin Crossley-Marra Director of Non-Theatrical Zeitgeist Films 247 Centre St. New York, NY 10013 212-274-1989 -----Original Message----- From: ghandman@library.berkeley.edu Sent: Monday, November 2, 2009 7:07pm To: videolib@lists.berkeley.edu Subject: Re: [Videolib] VHS to DVD for classroom use? Uh...Dude: you're really starting to piss me off. Yes...it IS the job of librarians to preserve the cultural record. If we don't no one will. What do you think we do all day? Shush the patrons? Shelve books! Get a clue, please. You're insulting us all (and it's not wise to piss off your primary customers). The fact is that an increasing amount of legally acquired materials--acquired in vhs--simply is no longer available in DVD or other viable formats, and may never be. The option of waiting out renegotiation of rights simply ain't an option. If I copy an out-of-distribution vhs to DVD and it subsequently becomes available on the open market, do the right thing and trash the copy. Until then, I'm doing my job by making sure that cultural capital stays accessible for the folks that I serve every day. If we had to rely exclusively on "the industry" to preserve this stuff for posterity, well, god help us all. Gary Handman > Wow Guys. > > I'm sorry but it's just not the job of a librarian to preserve "cultural > records." If you wanted to do that you should have gone into museum > archiving. > > I know it sucks when things go out of print or lose their distribution > contracts but you just have to wait until the rights have been sorted out. > > You're 100% wrong that its not stealing just because you can't buy it. The > rights always revert back to someone or some production company and those > people have every right to enter in to a new distribution deal or none at > all. > > Benjamin Crossley-Marra > Director of Non-Theatrical Distribution > Zeitgeist Films Ltd. > 247 Centre St, 2nd fl > New York, NY 10013 > P: (212) 274-1989 > C: (607) 765-7511 > F: (212) 274-1644 > http://www.zeitgeistfilms.com > > On 11/2/09 6:02 PM, "ghandman@library.berkeley.edu" > <ghandman@library.berkeley.edu> wrote: > >> Jessica...I shall go absolutely mad. > > It's not stealing if you CAN'T BUY THE >> GODDAMN THING ANYMORE. Show me > where I can buy a replacement at fair market >> and I'll do it. If you > can't, I'm gonna burn a replacement and use it. The >> alternative is > letting useful materials crumble. > > I am not talking about >> upgrades!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am not talking about > convenience. I am talking >> about preserving out-of-distribution works at > physical risk of >> disintegration. > > Gary > > > > >> sorry Gary you are not "preserving" anything you >> are stealing >> So if any film a professor wants to use has not yet been >> released on DVD, >> just copy it yourself ? That does seem to be what you and >> Michael are >> saying. >> That part of copyright was in fact put in for >> PRESERVATION not to give a >> free upgrade or format transfer. It was meant to >> make sure rare materials >> did not become totally unavailable >> and that is >> completely different. If you think making DVD copies of films >> you bought on >> VHS because a company has not been able to invest the >> THOUSANDS of THOUSANDS >> of dollars ( or tens of thousands depending on some >> films) to do it is not >> infringing on a market, I can't imagine how you >> expect independent companies >> in particular to survive. What would be the >> point of even making DVDs if >> professors and libraries just made their own >> copies under some non existent >> theory of "fair use" means I get to make >> free >> copies. Are you and Michael >> seriously arguing that hey just make copies >> and >> don't worry cause no one >> is getting hurt here. I would like to know. Nice >> that you choose to ignore >> section 108 because you find it "nonsensical" >> but at least don't pretend >> what you do is legal or ethical. Let me guess >> you promise to buy a DVD IF >> the company ever can afford to put it out and >> IF you decide >> the price is >> reasonable. Don't be surprised when there are no indie films >> coming out and >> the studios don't bother to release anything that is more >> than 2 years old. >> Why should they bother if you already made your own copy >> ? >> >> Yep I am >> nasty tonight because like I have said before I used to have this >> silly idea >> that librarians were supposed to PROTECT filmmakers and artists >> not abet >> those stealing their work. >> >> >> >> Greetings from Brooklyn >> >> On Mon, Nov 2, >> 2009 at 3:40 PM, <ghandman@library.berkeley.edu> wrote: >> >>> OK...gonna go out >> on a limb here. >>> >>> The "in-house" provision of 108 is so unspeakably stupid >> and nonsensical >>> that I've chosen to largely ignore it: why in the world >> would one make >>> a >>> copy of a decomposing work only to have to circulate >> the original for >>> classroom use (and not the more robust copy). Stupid. I >> urge similar >>> civil disobedience by my colleagues... We're not talking >> about >>> infringing >>> on ANYONE'S rights or ANYONE's market: We're talking >> about preserving >>> the >>> cultural record. >>> >>> Gary >>> >>> >>> > Making VHS >> to DVD copies is illegal period. The ONLY exemption IS" >>> > archival" >>> > >> and that is in section 108. In that case IF the copy were essentially >>> > >> decomposing you could make a digital copy but THAT copy can NOT leave >>> >> the >>> > library. FACE TO FACE exemption does allow you to use whole works in >> a >>> > class >>> > but those works must be LEGAL copies and transfer is not a >> legal copy. >>> > >>> > FYI the SCMS "best use" was prepared by a bunch of >> academics and has >>> no >>> > legal standing. It says for instance you can take >> a copy of a film >>> your >>> > cousin taped of Z channel 25 years ago and use >> that ( I am >>> exaggerating >>> > for >>> > effect but that is what there >> "interpretation" permits). Yes I know >>> there >>> > is >>> > no legal ruling >> but a little common sense with that document would >>> help. >>> > Again by >> their interpretation you really would not have to buy >>> anything , >>> > just >> tape it off TV and use that. >>> > >>> > Snarky mood today but go ahead and >> bitch I have to go to Brooklyn and >>> > won't >>> > be on line >>> > >>> > On >> Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 3:10 PM, Elizabeth Kielley >>> > >> <ekielley@messiah.edu>wrote: >>> > >>> >> I am in discussion with a faculty >> member who is certain that for >>> >> face-to-face teaching, he can make a DVD >> copy of a VHS as long as it >>> was >>> >> only used for teaching. I am >> disagreeing due to my understanding we >>> >> can't >>> >> make a copy, even for >> preservation. Please let me know. I know this >>> >> has >>> >> been discussed >> before but I am attaching his rationale: >>> >> >>> >> "Currently, educators in >> the face-to-face teaching context enjoy more >>> >> latitude and face fewer >> restrictions under the face-to-face exception >>> >> than >>> >> do their >> counterparts in the distance education context under the >>> online >>> >> >> distance education exception. For example, while educators in the >>> online >>> >> >> distance education context may only use ³reasonable and limited >>> >> >> portions² of >>> >> an audiovisual work, educators in the face-to-face context >> face no >>> such >>> >> limitation. >>> >> *Principle IV Online Distance >> Education* >>> >> ========================================= >>> >> The >> restrictions on transferring media from analog to digital apply >>> >> >> explicitly to online courses, but it's not clear if they apply in >>> >> >> face-to-face teaching . That's why I'm pretty sure that we can make >>> >> >> DVDs >>> >> from VHS tapes for classroom use (perhaps these could not be >> checked >>> out >>> >> by >>> >> students for personal viewing unless they were >> in the class). Let me >>> >> know >>> >> what you think!" >>> >> >>> >> AND >>> >> >> >>> >> >>> >> "The critical distinction here is "for classroom >> face-to-face >>> teaching", >>> >> not just for preservation purposes. The >> reason I included the second >>> >> quote >>> >> from the SCMS document is >> because it states that while online >>> >> instructors >>> >> are limited to >> "³reasonable and limited portions² of an audiovisual >>> >> work, >>> >> >> educators in the face-to-face context face no such limitation." So >>> >> >> copying >>> >> of entire works for specific employ in face-to-face teaching >> would >>> not >>> >> be >>> >> restricted as long as they were ONLY USED in that >> context. >>> >> >>> >> That was my thinking from what the SCMS states. Doe this >> make sense >>> to >>> >> you?" >>> >> >>> >> So please let me know if I'm >> wrong. >>> >> >>> >> Liz >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> Liz Kielley >>> >> >> ekielley@messiah.edu >>> >> Librarian/Technical Services Coordinator >>> >> >> Messiah College >>> >> Grantham, PA 17027 >>> >> 717-691-6006 x3850 >>> >> >> 717-691-6042 (FAX) >>> >> >>> >> VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and >> lively discussion of >>> >> issues >>> >> relating to the selection, evaluation, >> acquisition,bibliographic >>> >> control, >>> >> preservation, and use of >> current and evolving video formats in >>> libraries >>> >> and >>> >> related >> institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an >>> >> effective >>> >> >> working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of >>> communication >>> >> >> between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and >>> >> >> distributors. >>> >> >>> >> >>> > VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and >> lively discussion of >>> > issues relating to the selection, evaluation, >>> >> acquisition,bibliographic >>> > control, preservation, and use of current and >> evolving video formats >>> in >>> > libraries and related institutions. It is >> hoped that the list will >>> serve >>> > as an effective working tool for video >> librarians, as well as a >>> channel >>> of >>> > communication between >> libraries,educational institutions, and video >>> > producers and >> distributors. >>> > >>> >>> >>> Gary Handman >>> Director >>> Media Resources >> Center >>> Moffitt Library >>> UC Berkeley >>> >>> 510-643-8566 >>> >> ghandman@library.berkeley.edu >>> http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/MRC >>> >>> "I have >> always preferred the reflection of life to life itself." >>> --Francois >> Truffaut >>> >>> >>> VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively >> discussion of >>> issues >>> relating to the selection, evaluation, >> acquisition,bibliographic >>> control, >>> preservation, and use of current and >> evolving video formats in libraries >>> and >>> related institutions. It is >> hoped that the list will serve as an >>> effective >>> working tool for video >> librarians, as well as a channel of communication >>> between >> libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and >>> >> distributors. >>> >> VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively >> discussion of >> issues relating to the selection, evaluation, >> acquisition,bibliographic >> control, preservation, and use of current and >> evolving video formats in >> libraries and related institutions. It is hoped >> that the list will serve >> as an effective working tool for video librarians, >> as well as a channel of >> communication between libraries,educational >> institutions, and video >> producers and distributors. >> > > > Gary >> Handman > Director > Media Resources Center > Moffitt Library > UC >> Berkeley > > 510-643-8566 > ghandman@library.berkeley.edu > http://www.lib.berkeley.e >> du/MRC > > "I have always preferred the reflection of life to life >> itself." > --Francois Truffaut > > > VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and >> lively discussion of issues relating to the selection, evaluation, >> acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current and >> evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It is >> hoped that >> the list will serve as an effective working tool for video librarians, >> as well >> as a channel of communication between libraries,educational >> institutions, and >> video producers and distributors. > > > > > > > VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of > issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic > control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in > libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve > as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of > communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video > producers and distributors. > Gary Handman Director Media Resources Center Moffitt Library UC Berkeley 510-643-8566 ghandman@library.berkeley.edu http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/MRC "I have always preferred the reflection of life to life itself." --Francois Truffaut VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and distributors.

VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and distributors.
Received on Mon Nov 2 17:40:20 2009

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