Re: [Videolib] VHS to DVD for classroom use?

From: Shoaf,Judith P <jshoaf@ufl.edu>
Date: Mon Nov 02 2009 - 17:38:44 PST

Actually, I run across such copies (bound xerox of a rare book) from time to time in my research.

Judy Shoaf

________________________________
From: videolib-bounces@lists.berkeley.edu [videolib-bounces@lists.berkeley.edu] On Behalf Of Jessica Rosner [maddux2014@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, November 02, 2009 7:43 PM
To: videolib@lists.berkeley.edu
Subject: Re: [Videolib] VHS to DVD for classroom use?

The law SPECIFICALLY says that of you make a digital from an analogue copy it may NOT leave the library. As for books I have never seen a circulating xerox copies and I am sure
there are a lot of books that have been lost that could not be replaced. I would think if this were legal or accepted policy I would be seeing a lot of photo copies of books out there.

On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 7:30 PM, Smith jr, Neal <Neal.Smithjr@fhchs.edu<mailto:Neal.Smithjr@fhchs.edu>> wrote:
I’m going to risk life and limb and wade into the fray.

>If a book was lost from the library and you could not
>get replacement would you make xerox and put it on the shelves ?

Yes, absolutely. As I understand, that is exactly the right given to me in section 108 (b). If a book in my library is lost and I can’t find an unused replacement at a fair price, I can go to another library, get that book , make a photocopy of the entire book, and then put it on the shelf in my library for patrons to check out.
This isn’t an issue of trying to get away with doing something with film that we would never dream of doing with books. Section 108 (b) gives libraries the right to make copies to replace works that aren’t available unused for a fair price. It doesn’t matter if it is a film or a book.
And I don’t think Gary’s argument is about putting films into a convenient format. The way I see section 108 (b) (2), the issue is getting works into a USABLE format. Analog video is close to being obsolete in the consumer market. We can copy a badly deteriorating film that is not available for purchase to VHS, circulate that copy, and there is no legal issue. But many of our patrons can’t use that VHS. For now, I suck it up and follow the law. If people want to use the replacement copy of film outside of the library, that copy has to be VHS. But what happens when analog video actually becomes obsolete? Suddenly we’ve let concern over the risk of digital copies getting out and being distributed illegally trump the loss of access to old, rare, and obscure works. I see that as a serious concern that transcends the convenience of DVDs.

Neal Smith
Digital Services Librarian
Florida Hospital College of Health Sciences
671 Winyah Dr
Orlando, FL 32803
407-303-7747 ext. 110-9894

From: videolib-bounces@lists.berkeley.edu<mailto:videolib-bounces@lists.berkeley.edu> [mailto:videolib-bounces@lists.berkeley.edu<mailto:videolib-bounces@lists.berkeley.edu>] On Behalf Of Jessica Rosner
Sent: Monday, November 02, 2009 6:21 PM

To: videolib@lists.berkeley.edu<mailto:videolib@lists.berkeley.edu>
Subject: Re: [Videolib] VHS to DVD for classroom use?

Gary
The question was can a professor make a DVD of a VHS and the answer is clear no they can't. Section 108 is VERY clear. FYI you can according to 108 make a VHS copy
from a VHS and still use it what you CAN NOT DO is make a DVD from a VHS. There was no suggestion in the first question that the item was in any danger. If you don't like 108 than be my guest and try to get it changed but making a DVD and allowing it to be used in a class is plainly illegal and it DOES ripoff filmmakers. I am not holding my breath for someone who claims they MUST have a DVD to buy the legal copy after they made an illegal one. I remember Dennis saying that one of their biggest problems with KILLER OF SHEEP was first the huge number of ILLEGAL COPIES OWNED BY INSTITUTIONS and then after they released it legally the huge number of illegal downloads many of which were done by academics but hey they had to have it and their need was greater than the rights and livelihood of filmmakers and distributors. If a book was lost from the library and you could not
get replacement would you make xerox and put it on the shelves ? I realize academics pressure librarians and it sounds so nice to make films available but every film ever made or even released may not be available for the academic to use and they sure as heck may not be available in the most CONVENIENT format. You want that copy under 108 ? Well then keep it in VHS or keep it for RESEARCH & PRESERVATION. When you do otherwise you ARE stealing from filmmakers especially independent ones. Not to sound like a broken record but you are free to PRESERVE but you are not free to CIRCULATE outside the library.

On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 6:02 PM, <ghandman@library.berkeley.edu<mailto:ghandman@library.berkeley.edu>> wrote:
Jessica...I shall go absolutely mad.

It's not stealing if you CAN'T BUY THE GODDAMN THING ANYMORE. Show me
where I can buy a replacement at fair market and I'll do it. If you
can't, I'm gonna burn a replacement and use it. The alternative is
letting useful materials crumble.

I am not talking about upgrades!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am not talking about
convenience. I am talking about preserving out-of-distribution works at
physical risk of disintegration.

Gary

> sorry Gary you are not "preserving" anything you are stealing
> So if any film a professor wants to use has not yet been released on DVD,
> just copy it yourself ? That does seem to be what you and Michael are
> saying.
> That part of copyright was in fact put in for PRESERVATION not to give a
> free upgrade or format transfer. It was meant to make sure rare materials
> did not become totally unavailable
> and that is completely different. If you think making DVD copies of films
> you bought on VHS because a company has not been able to invest the
> THOUSANDS of THOUSANDS of dollars ( or tens of thousands depending on some
> films) to do it is not infringing on a market, I can't imagine how you
> expect independent companies in particular to survive. What would be the
> point of even making DVDs if professors and libraries just made their own
> copies under some non existent theory of "fair use" means I get to make
> free
> copies. Are you and Michael seriously arguing that hey just make copies
> and
> don't worry cause no one is getting hurt here. I would like to know. Nice
> that you choose to ignore section 108 because you find it "nonsensical"
> but at least don't pretend what you do is legal or ethical. Let me guess
> you promise to buy a DVD IF the company ever can afford to put it out and
> IF you decide
> the price is reasonable. Don't be surprised when there are no indie films
> coming out and the studios don't bother to release anything that is more
> than 2 years old. Why should they bother if you already made your own copy
> ?
>
> Yep I am nasty tonight because like I have said before I used to have this
> silly idea that librarians were supposed to PROTECT filmmakers and artists
> not abet those stealing their work.
>
>
>
> Greetings from Brooklyn
>
> On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 3:40 PM, <ghandman@library.berkeley.edu<mailto:ghandman@library.berkeley.edu>> wrote:
>
>> OK...gonna go out on a limb here.
>>
>> The "in-house" provision of 108 is so unspeakably stupid and nonsensical
>> that I've chosen to largely ignore it: why in the world would one make
>> a
>> copy of a decomposing work only to have to circulate the original for
>> classroom use (and not the more robust copy). Stupid. I urge similar
>> civil disobedience by my colleagues... We're not talking about
>> infringing
>> on ANYONE'S rights or ANYONE's market: We're talking about preserving
>> the
>> cultural record.
>>
>> Gary
>>
>>
>> > Making VHS to DVD copies is illegal period. The ONLY exemption IS"
>> > archival"
>> > and that is in section 108. In that case IF the copy were essentially
>> > decomposing you could make a digital copy but THAT copy can NOT leave
>> the
>> > library. FACE TO FACE exemption does allow you to use whole works in a
>> > class
>> > but those works must be LEGAL copies and transfer is not a legal copy.
>> >
>> > FYI the SCMS "best use" was prepared by a bunch of academics and has
>> no
>> > legal standing. It says for instance you can take a copy of a film
>> your
>> > cousin taped of Z channel 25 years ago and use that ( I am
>> exaggerating
>> > for
>> > effect but that is what there "interpretation" permits). Yes I know
>> there
>> > is
>> > no legal ruling but a little common sense with that document would
>> help.
>> > Again by their interpretation you really would not have to buy
>> anything ,
>> > just tape it off TV and use that.
>> >
>> > Snarky mood today but go ahead and bitch I have to go to Brooklyn and
>> > won't
>> > be on line
>> >
>> > On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 3:10 PM, Elizabeth Kielley
>> > <ekielley@messiah.edu<mailto:ekielley@messiah.edu>>wrote:
>> >
>> >> I am in discussion with a faculty member who is certain that for
>> >> face-to-face teaching, he can make a DVD copy of a VHS as long as it
>> was
>> >> only used for teaching. I am disagreeing due to my understanding we
>> >> can't
>> >> make a copy, even for preservation. Please let me know. I know this
>> >> has
>> >> been discussed before but I am attaching his rationale:
>> >>
>> >> "Currently, educators in the face-to-face teaching context enjoy more
>> >> latitude and face fewer restrictions under the face-to-face exception
>> >> than
>> >> do their counterparts in the distance education context under the
>> online
>> >> distance education exception. For example, while educators in the
>> online
>> >> distance education context may only use “reasonable and limited
>> >> portions” of
>> >> an audiovisual work, educators in the face-to-face context face no
>> such
>> >> limitation.
>> >> *Principle IV Online Distance Education*
>> >> =========================================
>> >> The restrictions on transferring media from analog to digital apply
>> >> explicitly to online courses, but it's not clear if they apply in
>> >> face-to-face teaching . That's why I'm pretty sure that we can make
>> >> DVDs
>> >> from VHS tapes for classroom use (perhaps these could not be checked
>> out
>> >> by
>> >> students for personal viewing unless they were in the class). Let me
>> >> know
>> >> what you think!"
>> >>
>> >> AND
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> "The critical distinction here is "for classroom face-to-face
>> teaching",
>> >> not just for preservation purposes. The reason I included the second
>> >> quote
>> >> from the SCMS document is because it states that while online
>> >> instructors
>> >> are limited to "“reasonable and limited portions” of an audiovisual
>> >> work,
>> >> educators in the face-to-face context face no such limitation." So
>> >> copying
>> >> of entire works for specific employ in face-to-face teaching would
>> not
>> >> be
>> >> restricted as long as they were ONLY USED in that context.
>> >>
>> >> That was my thinking from what the SCMS states. Doe this make sense
>> to
>> >> you?"
>> >>
>> >> So please let me know if I'm wrong.
>> >>
>> >> Liz
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Liz Kielley
>> >> ekielley@messiah.edu<mailto:ekielley@messiah.edu>
>> >> Librarian/Technical Services Coordinator
>> >> Messiah College
>> >> Grantham, PA 17027
>> >> 717-691-6006 x3850
>> >> 717-691-6042 (FAX)
>> >>
>> >> VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of
>> >> issues
>> >> relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic
>> >> control,
>> >> preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in
>> libraries
>> >> and
>> >> related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an
>> >> effective
>> >> working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of
>> communication
>> >> between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and
>> >> distributors.
>> >>
>> >>
>> > VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of
>> > issues relating to the selection, evaluation,
>> acquisition,bibliographic
>> > control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats
>> in
>> > libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will
>> serve
>> > as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a
>> channel
>> of
>> > communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video
>> > producers and distributors.
>> >
>>
>>
>> Gary Handman
>> Director
>> Media Resources Center
>> Moffitt Library
>> UC Berkeley
>>
>> 510-643-8566
>> ghandman@library.berkeley.edu<mailto:ghandman@library.berkeley.edu>
>> http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/MRC
>>
>> "I have always preferred the reflection of life to life itself."
>> --Francois Truffaut
>>
>>
>> VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of
>> issues
>> relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic
>> control,
>> preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries
>> and
>> related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an
>> effective
>> working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication
>> between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and
>> distributors.
>>
> VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of
> issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic
> control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in
> libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve
> as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of
> communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video
> producers and distributors.
>

Gary Handman
Director
Media Resources Center
Moffitt Library
UC Berkeley

510-643-8566
ghandman@library.berkeley.edu<mailto:ghandman@library.berkeley.edu>
http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/MRC

"I have always preferred the reflection of life to life itself."
--Francois Truffaut

VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and distributors.

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VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and distributors.

VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and distributors.
Received on Mon Nov 2 17:40:11 2009

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