Re: [Videolib] VHS to DVD for classroom use?

From: Dennis <milefilms@gmail.com>
Date: Mon Nov 02 2009 - 16:51:35 PST

Hey, don't bring me into the arguement. And I do expect to see
everybody who's doing preservation at the AMIA conference on
Wednesday. :-)

I take one afternoon off to fly and all hell breaks loose.
Dennis D
Milestone

Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 2, 2009, at 5:21 PM, Jessica Rosner <maddux2014@gmail.com> wrote:

> Gary
> The question was can a professor make a DVD of a VHS and the
> answer is clear no they can't. Section 108 is VERY clear. FYI you
> can according to 108 make a VHS copy
> from a VHS and still use it what you CAN NOT DO is make a DVD from a
> VHS. There was no suggestion in the first question that the item
> was in any danger. If you don't like 108 than be my guest and try to
> get it changed but making a DVD and allowing it to be used in a
> class is plainly illegal and it DOES ripoff filmmakers. I am not
> holding my breath for someone who claims they MUST have a DVD to buy
> the legal copy after they made an illegal one. I remember Dennis
> saying that one of their biggest problems with KILLER OF SHEEP was
> first the huge number of ILLEGAL COPIES OWNED BY INSTITUTIONS and
> then after they released it legally the huge number of illegal
> downloads many of which were done by academics but hey they had to
> have it and their need was greater than the rights and livelihood of
> filmmakers and distributors. If a book was lost from the library
> and you could not
> get replacement would you make xerox and put it on the shelves ? I
> realize academics pressure librarians and it sounds so nice to make
> films available but every film ever made or even released may not
> be available for the academic to use and they sure as heck may not
> be available in the most CONVENIENT format. You want that copy under
> 108 ? Well then keep it in VHS or keep it for RESEARCH &
> PRESERVATION. When you do otherwise you ARE stealing from filmmakers
> especially independent ones. Not to sound like a broken record but
> you are free to PRESERVE but you are not free to CIRCULATE outside
> the library.
>
> On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 6:02 PM, <ghandman@library.berkeley.edu> wrote:
> Jessica...I shall go absolutely mad.
>
> It's not stealing if you CAN'T BUY THE GODDAMN THING ANYMORE. Show me
> where I can buy a replacement at fair market and I'll do it. If you
> can't, I'm gonna burn a replacement and use it. The alternative is
> letting useful materials crumble.
>
> I am not talking about upgrades!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am not talking about
> convenience. I am talking about preserving out-of-distribution
> works at
> physical risk of disintegration.
>
> Gary
>
>
>
>
> > sorry Gary you are not "preserving" anything you are stealing
> > So if any film a professor wants to use has not yet been released
> on DVD,
> > just copy it yourself ? That does seem to be what you and Michael
> are
> > saying.
> > That part of copyright was in fact put in for PRESERVATION not to
> give a
> > free upgrade or format transfer. It was meant to make sure rare
> materials
> > did not become totally unavailable
> > and that is completely different. If you think making DVD copies
> of films
> > you bought on VHS because a company has not been able to invest the
> > THOUSANDS of THOUSANDS of dollars ( or tens of thousands depending
> on some
> > films) to do it is not infringing on a market, I can't imagine how
> you
> > expect independent companies in particular to survive. What would
> be the
> > point of even making DVDs if professors and libraries just made
> their own
> > copies under some non existent theory of "fair use" means I get to
> make
> > free
> > copies. Are you and Michael seriously arguing that hey just make
> copies
> > and
> > don't worry cause no one is getting hurt here. I would like to
> know. Nice
> > that you choose to ignore section 108 because you find it
> "nonsensical"
> > but at least don't pretend what you do is legal or ethical. Let
> me guess
> > you promise to buy a DVD IF the company ever can afford to put it
> out and
> > IF you decide
> > the price is reasonable. Don't be surprised when there are no
> indie films
> > coming out and the studios don't bother to release anything that
> is more
> > than 2 years old. Why should they bother if you already made your
> own copy
> > ?
> >
> > Yep I am nasty tonight because like I have said before I used to
> have this
> > silly idea that librarians were supposed to PROTECT filmmakers and
> artists
> > not abet those stealing their work.
> >
> >
> >
> > Greetings from Brooklyn
> >
> > On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 3:40 PM, <ghandman@library.berkeley.edu>
> wrote:
> >
> >> OK...gonna go out on a limb here.
> >>
> >> The "in-house" provision of 108 is so unspeakably stupid and
> nonsensical
> >> that I've chosen to largely ignore it: why in the world would
> one make
> >> a
> >> copy of a decomposing work only to have to circulate the original
> for
> >> classroom use (and not the more robust copy). Stupid. I urge
> similar
> >> civil disobedience by my colleagues... We're not talking about
> >> infringing
> >> on ANYONE'S rights or ANYONE's market: We're talking about
> preserving
> >> the
> >> cultural record.
> >>
> >> Gary
> >>
> >>
> >> > Making VHS to DVD copies is illegal period. The ONLY exemption
> IS"
> >> > archival"
> >> > and that is in section 108. In that case IF the copy were
> essentially
> >> > decomposing you could make a digital copy but THAT copy can NOT
> leave
> >> the
> >> > library. FACE TO FACE exemption does allow you to use whole
> works in a
> >> > class
> >> > but those works must be LEGAL copies and transfer is not a
> legal copy.
> >> >
> >> > FYI the SCMS "best use" was prepared by a bunch of academics
> and has
> >> no
> >> > legal standing. It says for instance you can take a copy of a
> film
> >> your
> >> > cousin taped of Z channel 25 years ago and use that ( I am
> >> exaggerating
> >> > for
> >> > effect but that is what there "interpretation" permits). Yes I
> know
> >> there
> >> > is
> >> > no legal ruling but a little common sense with that document
> would
> >> help.
> >> > Again by their interpretation you really would not have to buy
> >> anything ,
> >> > just tape it off TV and use that.
> >> >
> >> > Snarky mood today but go ahead and bitch I have to go to
> Brooklyn and
> >> > won't
> >> > be on line
> >> >
> >> > On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 3:10 PM, Elizabeth Kielley
> >> > <ekielley@messiah.edu>wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> I am in discussion with a faculty member who is certain that
> for
> >> >> face-to-face teaching, he can make a DVD copy of a VHS as long
> as it
> >> was
> >> >> only used for teaching. I am disagreeing due to my
> understanding we
> >> >> can't
> >> >> make a copy, even for preservation. Please let me know. I
> know this
> >> >> has
> >> >> been discussed before but I am attaching his rationale:
> >> >>
> >> >> "Currently, educators in the face-to-face teaching context
> enjoy more
> >> >> latitude and face fewer restrictions under the face-to-face
> exception
> >> >> than
> >> >> do their counterparts in the distance education context under
> the
> >> online
> >> >> distance education exception. For example, while educators in
> the
> >> online
> >> >> distance education context may only use “reasonable and limit
> ed
> >> >> portions” of
> >> >> an audiovisual work, educators in the face-to-face context
> face no
> >> such
> >> >> limitation.
> >> >> *Principle IV Online Distance Education*
> >> >> =========================================
> >> >> The restrictions on transferring media from analog to digital
> apply
> >> >> explicitly to online courses, but it's not clear if they apply
> in
> >> >> face-to-face teaching . That's why I'm pretty sure that we
> can make
> >> >> DVDs
> >> >> from VHS tapes for classroom use (perhaps these could not be
> checked
> >> out
> >> >> by
> >> >> students for personal viewing unless they were in the class).
> Let me
> >> >> know
> >> >> what you think!"
> >> >>
> >> >> AND
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> "The critical distinction here is "for classroom face-to-face
> >> teaching",
> >> >> not just for preservation purposes. The reason I included the
> second
> >> >> quote
> >> >> from the SCMS document is because it states that while online
> >> >> instructors
> >> >> are limited to "“reasonable and limited portions” of an
> audiovisual
> >> >> work,
> >> >> educators in the face-to-face context face no such
> limitation." So
> >> >> copying
> >> >> of entire works for specific employ in face-to-face teaching
> would
> >> not
> >> >> be
> >> >> restricted as long as they were ONLY USED in that context.
> >> >>
> >> >> That was my thinking from what the SCMS states. Doe this make
> sense
> >> to
> >> >> you?"
> >> >>
> >> >> So please let me know if I'm wrong.
> >> >>
> >> >> Liz
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Liz Kielley
> >> >> ekielley@messiah.edu
> >> >> Librarian/Technical Services Coordinator
> >> >> Messiah College
> >> >> Grantham, PA 17027
> >> >> 717-691-6006 x3850
> >> >> 717-691-6042 (FAX)
> >> >>
> >> >> VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively
> discussion of
> >> >> issues
> >> >> relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic
> >> >> control,
> >> >> preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in
> >> libraries
> >> >> and
> >> >> related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an
> >> >> effective
> >> >> working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of
> >> communication
> >> >> between libraries,educational institutions, and video
> producers and
> >> >> distributors.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> > VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively
> discussion of
> >> > issues relating to the selection, evaluation,
> >> acquisition,bibliographic
> >> > control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video
> formats
> >> in
> >> > libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list
> will
> >> serve
> >> > as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a
> >> channel
> >> of
> >> > communication between libraries,educational institutions, and
> video
> >> > producers and distributors.
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >> Gary Handman
> >> Director
> >> Media Resources Center
> >> Moffitt Library
> >> UC Berkeley
> >>
> >> 510-643-8566
> >> ghandman@library.berkeley.edu
> >> http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/MRC
> >>
> >> "I have always preferred the reflection of life to life itself."
> >> --Francois Truffaut
> >>
> >>
> >> VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion
> of
> >> issues
> >> relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic
> >> control,
> >> preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in
> libraries
> >> and
> >> related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an
> >> effective
> >> working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of
> communication
> >> between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and
> >> distributors.
> >>
> > VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of
> > issues relating to the selection, evaluation,
> acquisition,bibliographic
> > control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video
> formats in
> > libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will
> serve
> > as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a
> channel of
> > communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video
> > producers and distributors.
> >
>
>
> Gary Handman
> Director
> Media Resources Center
> Moffitt Library
> UC Berkeley
>
> 510-643-8566
> ghandman@library.berkeley.edu
> http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/MRC
>
> "I have always preferred the reflection of life to life itself."
> --Francois Truffaut
>
>
> VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of
> issues relating to the selection, evaluation,
> acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current
> and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It
> is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool for
> video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between
> libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and
> distributors.
>
> VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of
> issues relating to the selection, evaluation,
> acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current
> and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It
> is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool for
> video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between
> libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and
> distributors.

VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and distributors.
Received on Mon Nov 2 16:52:02 2009

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