Re: [Videolib] The Daily Bitch

From: Sarah McCleskey <Sarah.E.McCleskey@hofstra.edu>
Date: Thu Oct 29 2009 - 16:01:07 PDT

Jessica and James, you are RIGHT ON. Streaming rights (in a controlled environment) are MUCH more desirable!
Great conversation, Gary, thanks!

Best, everyone,
Sarah

>>> Jessica Rosner <maddux2014@gmail.com> 10/29/09 5:52 PM >>>
Pretty much what I mean James. I know that very few institutions actually
need/use traditional PPR for public showings outside the class whereas
streaming is becoming a much more desired/useful right for institutions to
acquire.

On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 5:26 PM, Steffen, James M <jsteffe@emory.edu> wrote:

> Jessica--
>
> I think what you're suggesting ("paying the extra fee if STREAMING is
> included in the PPR") would be more attractive than the public performance
> rights themselves, since *most* institutional titles that we purchase are
> never shown publicly apart face-to-face classroom instruction. There is a
> certain number of titles for which public performance rights actually get
> used, but they're in the minority.
>
> To me, the ideal situation would be if the vendor offered a choice of
> *either* public performance rights or campus streaming rights for a single
> institutional price. In most cases I'd choose streaming over PPR, since it
> would be more likely to get used by people. And if it helps sustain the
> institutional pricing model that documentary filmmakers feel they need to
> continue funding their work, all the better.
>
> --James
>
> --
> James M. Steffen, PhD
> Film Studies and Media Librarian
> Theater and Dance Subject Liaison
> Marian K. Heilbrun Music and Media Library
> Emory University
> 540 Asbury Circle
> Atlanta, GA 30322-2870
>
> Phone: (404) 727-8107
> FAX: (404) 727-2257
> Email: jsteffe@emory.edu
> Web: www.jamesmsteffen.net
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 16:40:42 -0400
> From: Jessica Rosner <maddux2014@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Videolib] The Daily Bitch
> To: videolib@lists.berkeley.edu
> Message-ID:
> <55e0d0090910291340l65f72777n1bfb05a98f968507@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> I agree. Once you go the Amazon route the cat is out of the bag. A
> distributor is free to charge different prices to different buyers so long
> has they maintain total control, as in sell it themselves directly. Asking
> a
> third party like Amazon or Midwest Tape to do this is wrong. If you have a
> film worthy of wider retail audience and you want to sell it retail, you
> can't tell institutions they can't buy it unless they buy rights they don't
> need at a higher price. What most companies do, which in my mind is
> perfectly fair is that they have a period of time 6 months to several years
> in which they sell the film directly and only to institutions at the higher
> PPR pricing. Later they go retail, the problem is trying to keep the higher
> pricing once you go retail. For the record I know filmmakers who
> absolutely
> and sincerely believe that institutions MUST pay more to use a film in a
> class even if it is available through wholesalers.They honestly believe
> this
> is in copyright law because someone has told them this. I should add that
> some folks have what amounts to their own Amazon stores and that is rather
> confusing because in fact they are still the sole supplier and can set the
> prices but they should make this VERY, VERY clear and to keep things on the
> up and up they should require a SIGNED ( via Internet) contract from a
> buyer
> agreeing to the terms. This way everyone knows what the deal is.
>
> To follow up on my earlier post , how do librarians feel about paying the
> extra fee if STREAMING is included in the PPR ? This strikes me as a fair
> way for filmmakers & indie distributors to get the money they need to
> survive and institutions got something they need which would not otherwise
> be legal to do.
>
> On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 4:09 PM, Jaeschke, Myles
> <mjaesch@tulsalibrary.org>wrote:
>
> > Sorry Judy,
> > I'm gonna disagree here. No vendor will tell me that I can't buy their
> > product from a 3rd party if it is legally available this way.
> >
> > Now if a vendor has 3 prices and they are the EXCLUSIVE seller of such
> > products, then yes as an institution, I will be happy to purchase at the
> > price they set for my institution.
> >
> > Best,
> > Myles Jaeschke
> > Tulsa City-County Library System
> > Media Collections
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: videolib-bounces@lists.berkeley.edu [mailto:
> > videolib-bounces@lists.berkeley.edu] On Behalf Of Shoaf,Judith P
> > Sent: Thursday, October 29, 2009 2:35 PM
> > To: videolib@lists.berkeley.edu
> > Subject: Re: [Videolib] The Daily Bitch
> >
> > But if the company has 3 prices, it has every right to (1) sell the home
> > movie version on Amazon, and (2) tell you that, as an institution, you
> are
> > obliged to buy the institutional version (with or without PPR), and you
> are
> > not allowed to buy the home use version on Amazon or anywhere else.
> >
> > Judy
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > Yeah...they're probably the same in terms of price point. My main
> > complaint is the tendency to push the wrong-headed notion that
> > institutional pricing and performance rights are always synonymous. If a
> > distributor wants to charge more for institutional sales based on an
> > assessment of markets (i.e. what the market will bear), ok... Just don't
> > call it something else.
> >
> > gary
> >
> >
> >
> > > Gary : What exactly is the difference between 2 and 3 ?
> > >
> > > Also I think there is an issue that should be discussed in the future.
> As
> > > Gary pointed out VERY few institutions need what is being offered with
> > > PPR.It is one thing to offer PPR when the titles are really intended
> for
> > > academic use and NOT offered in the home market but another thing if
> you
> > > are
> > > expecting institutions to pay for something they could get for less on
> > > Amazon. The ONLY value would be is if for some reason they do an open
> > show
> > > and even then limiting to 50 people seems to make that nearly useless
> to
> > > an
> > > academic institution. HOWEVER as things are changing fast I would say
> > > that
> > > if distributors would offer limited streaming rights with the PPR (
> as
> > > in
> > > password protected to students enrolled in a particular class) that
> > might
> > > make them worth the extra money to schools feeling pressure to allow
> > > students to watch stuff in their dorm etc. I would be interested in how
> > > both
> > > distributors and librarians feel about this.
> > >
> > > On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 2:14 PM, <ghandman@library.berkeley.edu>
> wrote:
> > >
> > >> A simple request to all involved:
> > >>
> > >> It's easy enough (and the honest thing to do) in a catalog to offer
> > >> three
> > >> prices:
> > >>
> > >> 1. Home video (does not include performance rights)
> > >> 2. Film with performance rights
> > >> 3. Institutional buyers (which includes performance rights)
> > >>
> > >> The above acknowledges pricing based on buyer type and avoids making
> it
> > >> sound as if institutions automatically require performance rights.
> > >>
> > >> Gary
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> > I'll chime in here from the 'seedy distributor' point of view:
> > >> >
> > >> > When I send out announcements regarding films available with PPR, I
> am
> > >> > well aware that some (not all)
> > >> > of our titles are available at consumer prices and that many public
> > >> > librarians (and Gary and Christine) will purchase the consumer
> > >> > version, hence my language
> > >> > regarding the PPR license. If you don't need PPR, my request is
> this:
> > >> > please, if possible, buy the consumer version direct from us
> > >> > at:www.alivemindmedia.com
> > >> > . When you
> > >> > do so, our filmmakers generally receive close to 50% of the SRP.
> When
> > >> > you purchase through Amazon or other online retail sites, however,
> > >> > they get 50% from the wholesale price, minus the sub distribution
> fee
> > >> > which accounts for another big chunk, almost 20%.
> > >> > We would like to work with you to build your collections based on
> > >> your
> > >> > needs while also representing and protecting our filmmakers best
> > >> > interests.
> > >> >
> > >> > Our definition of PPR:
> > >> >
> > >> > When you purchase any of our Alive Mind Education titles, whether
> you
> > >> > are a public library, college, university, corporation or non profit
> > >> > group, public performance rights are included. Public performance
> > >> > rights allow educational and non profit groups to exhibit our films
> to
> > >> > groups of 50 or fewer individuals where admission is not charged.
> The
> > >> > term of the public performance license is for the life of the DVD.
> > >> > However, if you intend to screen it to an admission paying audience
> of
> > >> > over 50 and to publicly advertise it, then we ask that you contact
> us
> > >> > regarding a public screening fee.
> > >> >
> > >> > Best,
> > >> >
> > >> > Elizabeth
> > >> >
> > >> > Elizabeth Sheldon
> > >> > Vice President
> > >> > Alive Mind Education
> > >> > 56 W. 45th St., Suite 805
> > >> > New York, NY 10036
> > >> > (212) 398-3112 tele
> > >> >
> > >> > www.alivemindeducation.com
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > On Oct 29, 2009, at 1:21 PM, GODIN, CHRISTINE wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> >> We don't pay more for books. And yes, some journal subscriptions
> > >> >> have an
> > >> >> institutional price which frankly is discouraging to libraries with
> > >> >> limited budgets. Most of those come through the aggregators now
> which
> > >> >> provides online service, indexing, and remote access. Most of my
> $250
> > >> >> and up videos have a limited audience.
> > >> >> If I had to pay an institutional price for all media, I would have
> > >> far
> > >> >> far fewer titles on the shelves. I don't think that is good for
> > >> >> anyone.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Christine Crowley Godin
> > >> >> Dean of Learning Resources
> > >> >> Adjunct Faculty, Theatre
> > >> >> Northwest Vista College
> > >> >> 3535 N. Ellison Dr.
> > >> >> San Antonio, TX 78251
> > >> >> 210.486.4572 voice
> > >> >> 210.486.4504 fax
> > >> >> cgodin@alamo.edu (new email as of Aug. 1, 2009)
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >> -----Original Message-----
> > >> >> From: videolib-bounces@lists.berkeley.edu
> > >> >> [mailto:videolib-bounces@lists.berkeley.edu] On Behalf Of Jo Ann
> > >> >> Reynolds
> > >> >> Sent: Thursday, October 29, 2009 12:12 PM
> > >> >> To: videolib@lists.berkeley.edu
> > >> >> Subject: Re: [Videolib] The Daily Bitch
> > >> >>
> > >> >> I guess I wonder why libraries wouldn't pay more, the way we do
> with
> > >> >> books and journal subscriptions. Our corporate mission, after all,
> > >> >> is to
> > >> >> facilitate access to lots of users, not just one as with the home
> > >> >> market. Vendors know we'll be lending to multiple users although I
> > >> >> doubt, for some of the material we purchase we are taking sales
> away
> > >> >> from them.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Jo Ann
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Jo Ann Reynolds
> > >> >> Reserve Services Coordinator
> > >> >> University of Connecticut
> > >> >> Homer Babbidge Library
> > >> >> Storrs, CT
> > >> >> 860-486-1406
> > >> >> jo_ann.reynolds@uconn.edu
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Question Reality
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >> -----Original Message-----
> > >> >> From: videolib-bounces@lists.berkeley.edu
> > >> >> [mailto:videolib-bounces@lists.berkeley.edu] On Behalf Of GODIN,
> > >> >> CHRISTINE
> > >> >> Sent: Thursday, October 29, 2009 1:06 PM
> > >> >> To: videolib@lists.berkeley.edu
> > >> >> Subject: Re: [Videolib] The Daily Bitch
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Amen! We buy a lot of titles through distributors who don't sell to
> > >> >> the
> > >> >> home video market and those titles are possibly going to need PPR
> for
> > >> >> us. For the most part, though, if I can get it at the home video
> > >> price
> > >> >> for basic classroom use, I will. And do.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Christine Crowley Godin
> > >> >> Dean of Learning Resources
> > >> >> Adjunct Faculty, Theatre
> > >> >> Northwest Vista College
> > >> >> 3535 N. Ellison Dr.
> > >> >> San Antonio, TX 78251
> > >> >> 210.486.4572 voice
> > >> >> 210.486.4504 fax
> > >> >> cgodin@alamo.edu (new email as of Aug. 1, 2009)
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >> -----Original Message-----
> > >> >> From: videolib-bounces@lists.berkeley.edu
> > >> >> [mailto:videolib-bounces@lists.berkeley.edu] On Behalf Of
> > >> >> ghandman@library.berkeley.edu
> > >> >> Sent: Thursday, October 29, 2009 11:49 AM
> > >> >> To: videolib@lists.berkeley.edu
> > >> >> Subject: [Videolib] The Daily Bitch
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Hi all (and particularly you distributors out there)
> > >> >>
> > >> >> I need to vent about an increasingly common practice which really
> > >> >> frosts
> > >> >> me:
> > >> >> I continue to encounter cases in which a distributor will sell a
> > >> >> work on
> > >> >> amazon at home video prices and at the same time will sell the same
> > >> >> work
> > >> >> at institutional prices via the distributor's web site. In such
> > >> >> cases--because I don't require performance rights--I'll ALWAYS buy
> > >> the
> > >> >> amazon copy. However, I've recently encountered cases where the
> > >> >> vendor
> > >> >> has gotten back to us and has refused to sell at the home video
> > >> price.
> > >> >> This is dishonest and sucky, to say the least. If the game plan is
> > >> to
> > >> >> strictly bifurcate the market (institutional/home), distributors
> > >> >> should
> > >> >> NOT be putting their stuff out in the home video market via home
> > >> video
> > >> >> venues like amazon. The practice is confusing, a bit seedy, and
> > >> >> time-wasting.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> OK...there...
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Gary Handman
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Gary Handman
> > >> >> Director
> > >> >> Media Resources Center
> > >> >> Moffitt Library
> > >> >> UC Berkeley
> > >> >>
> > >> >> 510-643-8566
> > >> >> ghandman@library.berkeley.edu
> > >> >> http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/MRC
> > >> >>
> > >> >> "I have always preferred the reflection of life to life itself."
> > >> >> --Francois Truffaut
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >> VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion
> of
> > >> >> issues relating to the selection, evaluation,
> > >> >> acquisition,bibliographic
> > >> >> control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video
> formats
> > >> >> in
> > >> >> libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will
> > >> >> serve
> > >> >> as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a
> > >> >> channel
> > >> >> of communication between libraries,educational institutions, and
> > >> video
> > >> >> producers and distributors.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion
> of
> > >> >> issues relating to the selection, evaluation,
> > >> >> acquisition,bibliographic
> > >> >> control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video
> formats
> > >> >> in
> > >> >> libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will
> > >> >> serve
> > >> >> as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a
> > >> >> channel
> > >> >> of communication between libraries,educational institutions, and
> > >> video
> > >> >> producers and distributors.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion
> of
> > >> >> issues relating to the selection, evaluation,
> > >> >> acquisition,bibliographic
> > >> >> control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video
> formats
> > >> >> in
> > >> >> libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will
> > >> >> serve
> > >> >> as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a
> > >> >> channel
> > >> >> of communication between libraries,educational institutions, and
> > >> video
> > >> >> producers and distributors.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion
> of
> > >> >> issues relating to the selection, evaluation,
> > >> >> acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current
> > >> >> and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions.
> It
> > >> >> is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool for
> > >> >> video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between
> > >> >> libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and
> > >> >> distributors.
> > >> >>
> > >> >
> > >> > VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of
> > >> > issues relating to the selection, evaluation,
> > >> acquisition,bibliographic
> > >> > control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats
> > >> in
> > >> > libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will
> > >> serve
> > >> > as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a
> > >> channel
> > >> of
> > >> > communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video
> > >> > producers and distributors.
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Gary Handman
> > >> Director
> > >> Media Resources Center
> > >> Moffitt Library
> > >> UC Berkeley
> > >>
> > >> 510-643-8566
> > >> ghandman@library.berkeley.edu
> > >> http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/MRC
> > >>
> > >> "I have always preferred the reflection of life to life itself."
> > >> --Francois Truffaut
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of
> > >> issues
> > >> relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic
> > >> control,
> > >> preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in
> libraries
> > >> and
> > >> related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an
> > >> effective
> > >> working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of
> communication
> > >> between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and
> > >> distributors.
> > >>
> > > VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of
> > > issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic
> > > control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in
> > > libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will
> serve
> > > as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel
> > of
> > > communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video
> > > producers and distributors.
> > >
> >
> >
> > Gary Handman
> > Director
> > Media Resources Center
> > Moffitt Library
> > UC Berkeley
> >
> > 510-643-8566
> > ghandman@library.berkeley.edu
> > http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/MRC
> >
> > "I have always preferred the reflection of life to life itself."
> > --Francois Truffaut
> >
> >
> > VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of
> issues
> > relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control,
> > preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries
> and
> > related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an
> effective
> > working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication
> > between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and
> > distributors.
> >
> > VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of
> issues
> > relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control,
> > preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries
> and
> > related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an
> effective
> > working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication
> > between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and
> > distributors.
> >
> > VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of
> issues
> > relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control,
> > preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries
> and
> > related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an
> effective
> > working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication
> > between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and
> > distributors.
> >
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> VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues
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> preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and
> related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective
> working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication
> between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and
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>

VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and distributors.
Received on Thu Oct 29 16:02:29 2009

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