Re: [Videolib] NEWS ...jailed for breaking copyright

From: Tiar, Marc <MTiar@washoecounty.us>
Date: Mon Apr 20 2009 - 10:12:19 PDT

The "if all libraries and librarians were eliminated" question is
unrealistic and really irrelevant to the questions I put out below.
That's practically trolling for an emotional response on this board.
How is that even analogous to what's being discussed?

 

You basically ignored my entire argument, that the intent is a key
component of guilt and culpability. I was addressing the concept of
"facilitation" as a crime, using the "bank plans used for a robbery"
example, not related to the Pirate Bay. The onus is not on libraries
to monitor how people are using photocopiers. We provide it as a tool
that has legally been allowed for certain purposes. If patrons choose
to use it for nefarious purposes, they are the violators, not the
library that provided the machine. Publishers can contact the library
and ask, but most libraries/librarians are not in a position to monitor
who uses their copier and for what purpose. It's a violation of their
privacy, actually. We would not be liable. Section 108(f)(1) of the
copyright law actually states this, that libraries and their employees
are not liable for what a patron does on their unsupervised reproducing
machine, as long as we have posted a sign notifying patrons of copyright
law.

 

A copier is not set up specifically to allow illegal activities, despite
the possibility that it can be. We do have a clue that they may do
illegal things. Car dealers and makers know their cars may be used for
illegal things. Gun makers too. Medical equipment manufacturers know
their syringes can be used for illegal narcotics. That something can
be used for an illegal purpose does not make the provider of that thing
liable for when it is, unless that is expressly what they have provided
it for. There's a difference.

 

Let me be clear, I can't defend Pirate Bay and I'm not trying to do so.
I don't for a moment think it was set up for any purpose other than
illegal trading of files. But the broad argument put forth here is that
basically everyone from Dell to Microsoft to SBC is guilty because they
provided the equipment that facilitates the piracy.

 

________________________________

From: videolib-bounces@lists.berkeley.edu
[mailto:videolib-bounces@lists.berkeley.edu] On Behalf Of Jessica Rosner
Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 9:25 AM
To: videolib@lists.berkeley.edu
Subject: Re: [Videolib] NEWS ...jailed for breaking copyright

 

In the case of Pirate Bay it was set up more or less for the purpose of
helping people break copyright ( and profiting from it ) If I came into
your library and copied book after book AFTER you had been specifically
contacted by publishers not to let me do it you would indeed be liable.
You can't set up something to specifically allow illegal activities and
then say sorry I had no clue they would do that. This is why Napster is
no more. I remain pretty dismayed by the lenient attitude towards
Pirate Bay expressed by some. I ask again if all Universities and
cities etc decided to eliminate Libraries and Librarians ( save a bank
of free computers) because they believe everything should simply be
found and downloaded off the net ( copyright be damned) would say you
were ambivalent ? Filmmakers and distributors do get awfully touchy
about the idea of just downloading anything you want because you found a
way to do it without bothering to pay them.

On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 11:08 AM, Tiar, Marc <MTiar@washoecounty.us>
wrote:

I don't really have a strong opinion one way or the other re: Pirate Bay
and others of the ilk; I can't defend their actions but I don't
necessarily think they are entirely guilty either. Let's just say,
mixed feelings.

 

But "facilitation" being a crime...to what extent? Are libraries
culpable of facilitating by providing photocopiers if patrons violate
copyright by copying an entire magazine or small book? Is Xerox
culpable for manufacturing said machine? Is the inventor guilty for
making the very technology that allows photocopying to take place? All
these actions have facilitated (etymologically, meaning to make easier)
the violation of copyright law. Where exactly is the line?

 

Using the analogy below, if you give the bank plans for the purpose of
robbing it, then you in fact did "personally take part in the robbery"
and are indeed liable. If you gave the plans unknowingly, or under
other auspices (such as for HVAC work or architectural purposes) that
are entirely innocent, then you in fact are not liable. There's a key
difference - intent. See also "the guilty mind" - mens rea
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mens_rea> . This leads back to the
mention in an earlier email of the use of "pirate" in the site's name.
That indicates an intention of usage for piracy, which helps build the
case against them.

 

Marc

 

________________________________

From: videolib-bounces@lists.berkeley.edu
[mailto:videolib-bounces@lists.berkeley.edu] On Behalf Of Jessica Rosner
Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 9:10 PM

To: videolib@lists.berkeley.edu
Subject: Re: [Videolib] NEWS ...jailed for breaking copyright

 

"facilitation" is a crime by itself. If I give you the plans to a bank
which you then use to rob it , I am liable even if I did not personally
take part in the robbery. You really believed there is any question this
site is not set up for the sole purpose of helping people do illegal
downloads while it sells ads ?

 

I think what has me, Dennis and others of upset is not what the correct
legal statute under which such an operation would be charged with if it
operated in the US but why a librarian who presumably wants to protect
the rights of authors, filmmakers, artists etc would find such a site
appealing and admirable ?

On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 8:59 PM, Charles Mccann <cmccann@fsu.edu> wrote:

As I've seen it there are no copyrighted materials stored on their site,
there are however torrent addresses to potential materials that 'may' be
copyrighted and 'may not' be copyrighted, that's a matter for
individuals using the torrents to determine.

----- Original Message -----
From: Dennis Doros <milefilms@gmail.com>
Date: Friday, April 17, 2009 9:14 pm
Subject: Re: [Videolib] NEWS ...jailed for breaking copyright
To: videolib@lists.berkeley.edu

> Okay, I'll aim this at Chuck directly because I know most of you don't
> deserve the following. Chuck, there's a reason why "we"
> distributors rant
> sometimes and this is such a case. There is a difference between

> promotingcivil disobedience and promoting theft. I don't know how

> many times I have
> to mention that not only are there laws that can be broken but
> there's moral
> and ethical considerations that yes, I keep harping on but strongly

> believein. Isn't honesty and integrity something that is required

> in colleges?
> Should there be internet sites on how best to steal from your
> library? If
> you caught somebody doing this repeatedly, would you ignore it?
> What's the difference between stealing a film using the internet and
> stealing a dvd or book from the library? And in the latter case,
> it's only
> one book or dvd. On the internet, it's allowing thousands to steal.

> There'sseveral films of ours on their site and I happen to know

> that the directors
> need their royalties to pay, ironically enough, their kids' college
> educations. There's got to be a lot worthier things to do in life than
> promoting theft for profit. Obviously, the courts thought so too.
> Dennis
>
>
> On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 7:17 PM, Charles Mccann <cmccann@fsu.edu>
> wrote:
> > I don't see anything wrong with providing information, which is
> essentially> what The Pirate Bay was doing, it's like blaming a
> crime on a gun, in this
> > case an internet tool, for what a person dose with that tool.
> Saying, "no
> > brainier" is something a prosecutor might say, but that doesn't
> make a point
> > of reason, it does serve as trash talk to those with the opposite
> opinion.>
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Jessica Rosner <maddux2014@gmail.com>
> > Date: Friday, April 17, 2009 5:36 pm
> > Subject: Re: [Videolib] NEWS ...jailed for breaking copyright
> > To: videolib@lists.berkeley.edu
> >
> > > I suspect it would be slam dunk in the US courts. I am getting
> > > senile and
> > > forgetting the name of that first file sharing site that got bitch
> > > slappeddown but laws in the US on this stuff heavily favor rights
> > > holders so I
> > > think this one would have been a no brainer.
> > >
> > > On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 12:55 PM, Mark Kopp <mkopp@iu08.org>
> wrote:> >
> > > > Most of the similar convictions like this have occurred in
> courts> > outside> The United States though...another one was in
> Australia,> > if memory serves
> > > > correct. Point is, I don't think they would have been convicted
> > > in the
> > > > United States. Just a rambling thought...
> > > >
> > > > Mark W. Kopp
> > > > Technology Assistant
> > > > IT Department
> > > > Appalachia Intermediate Unit 8
> > > > 4500 6th Avenue
> > > > Altoona, PA 16602
> > > > P: 814-940-0223 ext. 1384
> > > > F: 814-949-0984
> > > > C: 814-937-2802
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: videolib-bounces@lists.berkeley.edu [mailto:
> > > > videolib-bounces@lists.berkeley.edu] On Behalf Of Chuck McCann
> > > > Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 1:33 PM
> > > > To: videolib@lists.berkeley.edu
> > > > Subject: Re: [Videolib] NEWS ...jailed for breaking copyright
> > > >
> > > > The sad, or ridiculous part is, The Pirate Bay' doesn't host
> > > anything, they
> > > > provide links to files that could be used to download things via
> > > torrents> ... the article completely misrepresents the real deal.
> > > ...interesting> nonetheless.
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: videolib-bounces@lists.berkeley.edu [mailto:
> > > > videolib-bounces@lists.berkeley.edu] On Behalf Of Chuck McCann
> > > > Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 1:08 PM
> > > > To: videolib@lists.berkeley.edu
> > > > Subject: [Videolib] NEWS ...jailed for breaking copyright
> > > >
> > > > Pirate Bay four jailed for breaking copyright in Swedish file-
> > > sharing trial
> > > >
> > > > The founders of file-sharing website The Pirate Bay have been
> > > sentenced to
> > > > a year in jail in Sweden for breaking copyright laws by helping
> > > millions of
> > > > users download music, movies and computer games for free.
> > > >
> > > > http://tinyurl.com/ccyjt4
> > > >
> > > > Chuck McCann
> > > > Dept. Head, Digital Media Center
> > > > FSU Libraries
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively
> discussion> > of issues
> > > > relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic
> > > control,> preservation, and use of current and evolving video
> > > formats in libraries and
> > > > related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an
> > > effective> working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel
> > > of communication
> > > > between libraries,educational institutions, and video
> producers and
> > > > distributors.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively
> discussion> > of issues
> > > > relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic
> > > control,> preservation, and use of current and evolving video
> > > formats in libraries and
> > > > related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an
> > > effective> working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel
> > > of communication
> > > > between libraries,educational institutions, and video
> producers and
> > > > distributors.
> > > >
> > > > VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively
> discussion> > of issues
> > > > relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic
> > > control,> preservation, and use of current and evolving video
> > > formats in libraries and
> > > > related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an
> > > effective> working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel
> > > of communication
> > > > between libraries,educational institutions, and video
> producers and
> > > > distributors.
> > > >
> > >
> >
> > VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion
> of issues
> > relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic
> control,> preservation, and use of current and evolving video
> formats in libraries and
> > related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an
> effective> working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel
> of communication
> > between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and
> > distributors.
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Best,
> Dennis Doros
> Milestone Film & Video
> PO Box 128
> Harrington Park, NJ 07640
> Phone: 201-767-3117
> Fax: 201-767-3035
> email: milefilms@gmail.com
> www.milestonefilms.com <http://www.milestonefilms.com/>
> www.exilesfilm.com <http://www.exilesfilm.com/>
> www.killerofsheep.com <http://www.killerofsheep.com/>
>
> St. Louis 2009
> www.amianet.org <http://www.amianet.org/>
>

VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of
issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic
control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in
libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve
as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel
of communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video
producers and distributors.

 

VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of
issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic
control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in
libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve
as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel
of communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video
producers and distributors.

 

VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and distributors.
Received on Mon Apr 20 10:13:01 2009

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