Re: [Videolib] copyright AGAIN

Anna Headley (aheadle1@swarthmore.edu)
Thu, 30 Oct 2008 14:20:30 -0400

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Hi Gail,

I see what you are saying, and I agree that where a distributor is
providing access to content hosted on their own servers, the access
would necessarily expire when the distributor's licenses do. I am
talking about a different sort of transaction, in which the institution
purchases a file either on disc through the mail or downloaded from the
publisher via email / link / ftp / etc. The institution then hosts the
file on its own streaming server.

Appreciate everyone's comments, particularly Dennis. I guess we can
never know how long a format will "last" (including stay relevant). It
seems easy to believe that the time frame will grow shorter (supplanted
by new formats, better resolutions, new types of viewing technology).
It also seems easy to believe that formats will last longer if the files
do not degrade.

I understand that many distributors are afraid of file sharing. They
have a right to be. But I also believe that they will distribute
digitally anyway; they may not really have a choice. And a DVD, even a
VHS, is already in a format that can be pirated and distributed
illegally over the internet. So far, to continue with the music
industry metaphor, it seems that the best way to combat piracy has been
to make materials available easily and reasonably. Pirating is
time-consuming and difficult. A lot of people would rather pay.

Re: the professors who pirated Killer of sheep - would they have been
more likely to buy it legitimately if they could do it as an online
download and not have to either go to the store or wait 3 days to
receive it in the mail? Maybe. Sometimes professors procrastinate and
then find themselves in difficult situations.

But that is individuals; are we not trying to talk about libraries?
Libraries follow the law and procure legitimate materials. Libraries
educate their users about copyright and, when they want to stream, want
to do it in ways that protect the content from getting pirated. And
libraries want to provide content to their patrons in the formats that
patrons want and need. These are basic tenets of ALA.

I don't think retirement will save you, Dennis! This is going to go
down before 2019 :)

best,
anna h

>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Subject:
> Re: [Videolib] copyright AGAIN
> From:
> "Gail Fedak" <gfedak@mtsu.edu>
> Date:
> Thu, 30 Oct 2008 12:33:54 -0500
> To:
> <videolib@lists.berkeley.edu>
>
> To:
> <videolib@lists.berkeley.edu>
>
>
> If I understand correctly, what's missing is that the purchaser does
> not receive anything physical. What is purchased is not a physical
> item or its content, but access to content. When the seller's access
> to the content goes away for any of a variety of reasons, so does the
> purchaser's. Also, when the purchaser's lease term expires,
> access goes away. This is probably too simplistic a view, but I see
> this type of arrangement as glorified rent - one that I'm not yet
> happy to embrace. Streaming certainly serves a rapidly growing
> market, but the idea that if/when I spend mega-bucks for streamed
> titles, I don't have access to them in perpetuity (until something
> "breaks") is onerous. FMG has a very education-friendly and affordable
> streaming model. Too many others are asking for amounts of money that
> I will never have in my budget, including yearly "maintenance" fees.
> While I understand that a seller's up-front and recurring costs are
> greater for streaming than for producing hard copies, the current
> pricing models are mostly exhorbitant. I hope the newness of streaming
> will wear off in the next few years as it did for other new formats so
> that the cost and other terms of access will
> settle to reasonable levels.
> My two cents,
> Gail
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Gail B. Fedak, Director
> Media Resources
> Middle Tennessee State University
> 1301 E. Main St., P.O. Box 33
> Murfreesboro, TN 37132
> phone 615-898-2899
> fax 615-898-2530
> email gfedak@mtsu.edu
> web www.mtsu.edu/~imr
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Subject:
> Re: [Videolib] copyright AGAIN
> From:
> "Dennis Doros" <milefilms@gmail.com>
> Date:
> Thu, 30 Oct 2008 10:08:32 -0400
> To:
> videolib@lists.berkeley.edu
>
> To:
> videolib@lists.berkeley.edu
>
>
> Dear Anna,
> The basis for traditional film distribution was that a license had a
> finite point. Life of material was never thought of as more than a
> decade or so. A 16mm print supposedly would only last a certain amount
> of time (you have to go back in time to remember that these prints
> would be run frequently and most projectors -- even the best
> maintained -- would wear down and even eat up prints periodically),
> and VHS and DVDs (even more so) were expected to last even fewer
> years. Especially since the 1970s, a lot of film and video income is
> based on the concept of re-selling rights and materials with each new
> generation of technology.
>
> The fact that half the original digital material for Toy Story (worth
> millions) was lost within a decade proves that digital isn't
> necessarily forever, but distributors and audio-visual librarians are
> both facing a new era where we might all go the way of the buggy whip
> manufacturers and appear in a Julius Knipl-Real Estate Photographer
> cartoon (The League of Lost Men, anyone?). Why does one need either if
> everything is online and can be shown with a click of a button? And
> don't think that the professors are currently too ignorant to find a
> film and use technology. The generation of kids who started using a
> computer at the age of two are becoming the professors of today.
>
> And the real fear is not that digitally, a film could last forever,
> but unlike DVD and VHS, that it can be spread virally -- without loss
> of quality -- until the day comes that only one copy is sold for
> $29.95 and is used by everybody. I do know professors (they actually
> tell me!) who have downloaded illegal copies of KILLER OF SHEEP and
> shown them in class so it is happening already. We sold 12,000 copies
> of this DVD which sounds like an awful lot, but five years ago, it
> would have sold two to three times more.
>
> So until the day happens when technology, copyright laws, users and
> distributors can form an agreeable business plan, there is going to be
> a angst and animosity on all sides.
>
> I personally have a date picked out for retirement, November 25, 2019,
> if anyone wants to come to the party.
>
> Dennis Doros
> Milestone Film & Video
>
>

-- 
Anna Headley
Swarthmore College Library
610.690.5781
aheadle1@swarthmore.edu 

--------------010405030906010200060702 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN"> Hi Gail,

I see what you are saying, and I agree that where a distributor is providing access to content hosted on their own servers, the access would necessarily expire when the distributor's licenses do.  I am talking about a different sort of transaction, in which the institution purchases a file either on disc through the mail or downloaded from the publisher via email / link / ftp / etc.  The institution then hosts the file on its own streaming server.

Appreciate everyone's comments, particularly Dennis.  I guess we can never know how long a format will "last" (including stay relevant).  It seems easy to believe that the time frame will grow shorter (supplanted by new formats, better resolutions, new types of viewing technology).  It also seems easy to believe that formats will last longer if the files do not degrade. 

I understand that many distributors are afraid of file sharing.  They have a right to be.  But I also believe that they will distribute digitally anyway; they may not really have a choice.  And a DVD, even a VHS, is already in a format that can be pirated and distributed illegally over the internet.  So far, to continue with the music industry metaphor, it seems that the best way to combat piracy has been to make materials available easily and reasonably.  Pirating is time-consuming and difficult.  A lot of people would rather pay.

Re: the professors who pirated Killer of sheep - would they have been more likely to buy it legitimately if they could do it as an online download and not have to either go to the store or wait 3 days to receive it in the mail?  Maybe.  Sometimes professors procrastinate and then find themselves in difficult situations.

But that is individuals; are we not trying to talk about libraries?  Libraries follow the law and procure legitimate materials.  Libraries educate their users about copyright and, when they want to stream, want to do it in ways that protect the content from getting pirated.  And libraries want to provide content to their patrons in the formats that patrons want and need.  These are basic tenets of ALA.

I don't think retirement will save you, Dennis!  This is going to go down before 2019 :)

best,
anna h




Subject:
Re: [Videolib] copyright AGAIN
From:
"Gail Fedak" <gfedak@mtsu.edu>
Date:
Thu, 30 Oct 2008 12:33:54 -0500
To:
<videolib@lists.berkeley.edu>
To:
<videolib@lists.berkeley.edu>

If I understand correctly, what's missing is that the purchaser does not receive anything physical. What is purchased is not a physical item or its content, but access to content. When the seller's access to the content goes away for any of a variety of reasons, so does the purchaser's. Also, when the purchaser's lease term expires, access goes away. This is probably too simplistic a view, but I see this type of arrangement as glorified rent - one that I'm not yet happy to embrace. Streaming certainly serves a rapidly growing market, but the idea that if/when I spend mega-bucks for streamed titles, I don't have access to them in perpetuity (until something "breaks") is onerous. FMG has a very education-friendly and affordable streaming model. Too many others are asking for amounts of money that I will never have in my budget, including yearly "maintenance" fees. While I understand that a seller's up-front and recurring costs are greater for streaming than for producing hard copies, the current pricing models are mostly exhorbitant. I hope the newness of streaming will wear off in the next few years as it did for other new formats so that the cost and other terms of access will settle to reasonable levels.  
My two cents,
Gail

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Gail B. Fedak, Director
Media Resources
Middle Tennessee State University
1301 E. Main St., P.O. Box 33
Murfreesboro, TN  37132
phone  615-898-2899
fax  615-898-2530
email  gfedak@mtsu.edu
web  www.mtsu.edu/~imr




Subject:
Re: [Videolib] copyright AGAIN
From:
"Dennis Doros" <milefilms@gmail.com>
Date:
Thu, 30 Oct 2008 10:08:32 -0400
To:
videolib@lists.berkeley.edu
To:
videolib@lists.berkeley.edu

Dear Anna,
The basis for traditional film distribution was that a license had a finite point. Life of material was never thought of as more than a decade or so. A 16mm print supposedly would only last a certain amount of time (you have to go back in time to remember that these prints would be run frequently and most projectors -- even the best maintained -- would wear down and even eat up prints periodically), and VHS and DVDs (even more so) were expected to last even fewer years. Especially since the 1970s, a lot of film and video income is based on the concept of re-selling rights and materials with each new generation of technology. 

The fact that half the original digital material for Toy Story (worth millions) was lost within a decade proves that digital isn't necessarily forever, but distributors and audio-visual librarians are both facing a new era where we might all go the way of the buggy whip manufacturers and appear in a Julius Knipl-Real Estate Photographer cartoon (The League of Lost Men, anyone?). Why does one need either if everything is online and can be shown with a click of a button? And don't think that the professors are currently too ignorant to find a film and use technology. The generation of kids who started using a computer at the age of two are becoming the professors of today. 

And the real fear is not that digitally, a film could last forever, but unlike DVD and VHS, that it can be spread virally -- without loss of quality -- until the day comes that only one copy is sold for $29.95 and is used by everybody. I do know professors (they actually tell me!) who have downloaded illegal copies of KILLER OF SHEEP and shown them in class so it is happening already. We sold 12,000 copies of this DVD which sounds like an awful lot, but five years ago, it would have sold two to three times more.

So until the day happens when technology, copyright laws, users and distributors can form an agreeable business plan, there is going to be a angst and animosity on all sides.

I personally have a date picked out for retirement, November 25, 2019, if anyone wants to come to the party.

Dennis Doros
Milestone Film & Video




-- 
Anna Headley
Swarthmore College Library
610.690.5781
aheadle1@swarthmore.edu 

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VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and distributors.

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