Re: [Videolib] Buying at individual vs institutional price?

Jessica Rosner (jrosner@kino.com)
Thu, 29 Mar 2007 17:33:42 -0500

This is 100% a contractual issue. Not to belabor the obvious but any legal
copy can be used in a legit class, put on reserve etc. Now what you agree to
by contract in purchasing a tape directly from a distributor who requires
you to purchase PPR is different and can trump copyright law.
I was a bit startled the other day to receive an a mail from a college
librarian asking what our "institutional" price was for use of title in a
class. Whatever price it is on sale for on the web site ( we often have sale
prices so I can't be sure of the exact price without checking each one) I
told her. Most schools do not want or need PPR rights though SOME DO if they
in fact intend to show the film to anyone OTHER than students enrolled in a
specific class or if they want to put it on a cable system etc.
We have been through this so much it is pretty boring but we seem to keep
coming back.
My frustration is the abuse of "face to face" exemption and the claim of non
existent "educational" use for on campus screenings that are CLEARLY public
so this does work both ways.

On 3/29/07 5:14 PM, "Gary Handman" <ghandman@library.berkeley.edu> wrote:

> And I agree with you, Shawn...mostly.
>
> First...as we've implied in these conversations today, this is a legal
> issue only insofar as it involves contractual agreements for purchase and
> use. Has nothing to do with copyright WHATSOEVER. And, like you, I don't
> think it's really an ethical issue, either.
>
> Thing is...the legalities surrounding purchase and use of video are only a
> little more nailed down or defined now than they were 20 years ago. And at
> the dawn of digital delivery, much of the little we knew before is likely
> to be rendered completely obsolete.
>
> I think that, as a community of practitioners, the videolib community (and
> other librarians not on the list) is, in a sense, helping define common and
> reasonable practice. I think pointing to this shared understanding and
> practice might very well be useful if things ever came to cases. I also
> think that it's our role to define practice and policy and to advise
> administrators in such issues...not vice versa...it's what we get paid to
> do as professionals (or least, it should be)
>
> Gary
>
> At 02:25 PM 3/29/2007, you wrote:
>> Totally agree, Gary. Except asking videolib for legal advice on what
>> you think might be a legal issue certainly wouldn't protect you if what
>> you do comes back to bite you or the institution. Let's face it, the
>> question wasn't really asked simply because Mike's conscience bothered
>> him; I'm sure Mike is perfectly capable of deciding his own personal
>> moral dilemmas without relying on us. So asking the head guy or gal to
>> check with your legal advisor or having them make the final decision?
>> That usually protects you.
>>
>> Now videolib as an educational and informative source? I learn
>> something new on every conversation strand ....
>>
>> -Shawn
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-videolib@lists.berkeley.edu
>> [mailto:owner-videolib@lists.berkeley.edu] On Behalf Of Gary Handman
>> Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2007 5:10 PM
>> To: videolib@lists.berkeley.edu
>> Subject: RE: [Videolib] Buying at individual vs institutional price?
>>
>>
>> er...uh...ask our administrators? That's like asking an institutional
>> lawyer if
>> a particularly nebulous use of moving image materials meets the
>> conditions of
>> fair use. They'll say NO, a priori... Library administrators generally
>> know
>> NOTHING...NOTH-ING, about what's legal and what's not in terms of video
>> acquisition or use. That's what they should be paying us, as
>> professionals,
>> to do: make informed decisions and to do the best we can for library
>> collections and library users based on our best understanding of the
>> law.
>>
>> Unless performance rights are actually required, tiered pricing is a
>> commercial
>> and contractual matter, not a legal (as in copyright) one. There really
>> aren't
>> that many decisions or quandaries involved. If a title is available in
>> both
>> home and institutional pricing from a single vendor, and if you're
>> buying for a
>> library or similar institutional collection, you pay the institutional
>> price.
>> If the title is available in the home video market and if performance
>> rights
>> aren't an issue...well, no ethics involved: you buy the home video
>> version.
>> What's unethical is, as I wrote previously, vendors foisting off higher
>> prices
>> under false premise that performance rights are needed whenever a title
>> is
>> purchased for institutional use.
>>
>> Gary
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Quoting "Brock, Shawn" <Shawn.Brock@aetn.com>:
>>
>>> Now that's an odd question, because in a sense we sometimes do. We
>>> teach children to be polite, courteous, and to consider the feelings
>>> of others before speaking their mind. Which will sometimes involve
>>> saying things you don't really believe to make others feel better.
>>> Some of us also lead by example and lie on our taxes about income, to
>>> Blockbuster when that DVD is late, or to the police officer when we're
>>
>>> caught violating minor traffic laws.
>>>
>>> Don't think about this as a question of ethics, because invariably
>>> people in the position of Jonathan and I will say it's unethical while
>>
>>> dozens of media specialists will insist it's completely okay. So
>>> instead go by what is legal or illegal. In the end, that's your main
>>> obligation to your employer -- doing your job well in a way that
>>> doesn't create legal liability for them, not expanding the collection
>>> as cheaply as possible but can blow up in their face.
>>>
>>> So I would recommend asking your administrators -- they'll tell you
>>> what is legal or not, and also what they are willing to allow you to
>>> do. In then end, you're better protected as an individual.
>>>
>>> Of course, you could simply just purchase from companies who offer the
>>
>>> same price on their DVDs to consumers and libraries alike. I know of
>>> at least one company who does that .....
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Shawn Brock
>>> Manager, Education Sales
>>> A&E Television/The History Channel
>>> HistoryEducation.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: owner-videolib@lists.berkeley.edu
>>> [mailto:owner-videolib@lists.berkeley.edu] On Behalf Of Jonathan
>>> Miller
>>> Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2007 3:01 PM
>>> To: videolib@lists.berkeley.edu
>>> Subject: RE: [Videolib] Buying at individual vs institutional price?
>>>
>>>
>>> Do you teach your children to lie?
>>> JM
>>>
>>>
>>> Jonathan Miller, President
>>> First Run/Icarus Films, Inc.
>>> 32 Court Street, 21st Floor
>>> Brooklyn, NY 11201 USA
>>>
>>> tel 1.718.488.8900
>>> fax 1.718.488.8642
>>> www.frif.com
>>> jmiller@frif.com
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: owner-videolib@lists.berkeley.edu
>>> [mailto:owner-videolib@lists.berkeley.edu] On Behalf Of
>>> MichaelMay.5652831@bloglines.com
>>> Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2007 2:37 PM
>>> To: videolib@lists.berkeley.edu
>>> Subject: [Videolib] Buying at individual vs institutional price?
>>>
>>> Would it be illegal and/or unethical for a library to try to buy a DVD
>>
>>> at a lower individual price rather than a higher institutional price,
>>> for example by claiming that the DVD will be for individual use only
>>> or by reimbursing an individual staff member for a DVD purchased
>>> privately at an individual price, especially if the library does not
>>> want PPR?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks for any suggestions.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Mike in Dubuque
>>> VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of
>>> issues relating to the selection, evaluation,
>>> acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current
>>> and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It
>>> is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool for
>>> video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between
>>> libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and
>>> distributors.
>>>
>>>
>>> VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of
>>> issues relating to the selection, evaluation,
>>> acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current
>>> and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It
>>> is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool for
>>> video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between
>>> libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and
>>> distributors.
>>>
>>> VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of
>>> issues relating to the selection, evaluation,
>>> acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current
>>> and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It
>>> is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool for
>>> video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between
>>> libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and
>>> distributors.
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -------------------------------------------------
>> This mail sent through IMP: http://horde.org/imp/
>> VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of
>> issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic
>> control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in
>> libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve
>> as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel
>> of communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video
>> producers and distributors.
>>
>> VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of
>> issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic
>> control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in
>> libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve
>> as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of
>> communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video
>> producers and distributors.
>
> Gary Handman
> Director
> Media Resources Center
> Moffitt Library
> UC Berkeley
> ghandman@library.berkeley.edu
> http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/MRC
>
> "In societies where modern conditions of production prevail, all of life
> presents itself as an immense accumulation of spectacles."
>
> --Guy Debord
>
>
> VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues
> relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control,
> preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and
> related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective
> working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication
> between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and
> distributors.

Proud Resident of a BLUE STATE

Jessica Rosner
Kino International
333 W 39th St. 503
NY NY 10018
jrosner@kino.com
212-629-6880

VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and distributors.