RE: [Videolib] Would like your thoughts on this one

Jonathan Miller (jmiller@frif.com)
Thu, 14 Sep 2006 16:03:13 -0400

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Because History Channel is morally superior to California Newsreel?
Or because they're cheap?
j.



_____

From: owner-videolib@lists.berkeley.edu
[mailto:owner-videolib@lists.berkeley.edu] On Behalf Of Jerry Notaro
Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2006 3:32 PM
To: videolib@lists.berkeley.edu
Subject: Re: [Videolib] Would like your thoughts on this one

AND one of the reasons we buy so many of your products!

Jerry


Truthfully, it's amazing to me that they are actively trying to lose you as
a customer and you are fighting with them just so you can remain their
customer. It should be the other way around! Seeing this makes me VERY
glad that we offer all of our content to the educational market at our "home
video" prices .... (aside from the fact I couldn't morally justify this to
myself!).


Regards,
Shawn Brock
Manager, Education Sales
The History Channel
203-353-7217
shawn.brock@aetn.com

.


-----Original Message-----
From: Susan Albrecht [mailto:albrechs@wabash.edu]
<mailto:albrechs@wabash.edu%5d>
Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2006 1:27 PM
To: videolib@lists.berkeley.edu
Subject: Re: [Videolib] Would like your thoughts on this one

Well, guys, let me just announce who it is. Not sure if they have a
representative here in the group, but I seem to recall they do. (Larry?)
It's California Newsreel, and I have always enjoyed doing business with
them, and it would be rather hard for me to NOT do business with them since
their films are popular with several of our profs.

So... I guess not surprisingly... I'm getting mixed feedback. Some are
saying "This is ridiculous and we should challenge them" and others are
saying "Well, if it pops up & you click 'OK' then you're agreeing to their
terms." Sigh.

How 'bout my pointing out that the disclaimer they issue states
"videocassette" and I was in fact going to purchase the DVD? I still kinda
like that one as a way around it. :))

And yeah, Jessica, I've had it happen before (with a diff. company) that
they called me when I tried to place an order for home use video w/ my
college credit card and told me they could not complete the order. In that
case, I just logged back on their site, used my personal credit card, had
it shipped to my home addy, then got reimbursed by the college. Illegal?
I don't think so. Unethical? I don't think so. In that case there wasn't
any "contract" situation; they just didn't want to sell a video labelled
home use to someone at an institution, and I thought that was balderdash
since I was purchasing for library use.

I'm still thinking this one over, so keep those thoughts rolling in, if you
would!

Susan, who guesses if Newsreel.org has a rep here, the "videocassette"
language will shortly be changed to "videocassette or disc."

At 12:03 PM 9/14/2006, you wrote:

Seems this is a contractual (not a legal) situation: the company is
putting forward conditions for sale and use and the user, in buying, agrees
to the contact. The whole HOME VIDEO issue is just a weird smokescreen...

I wouldn't do business with these guys, or if I did, I read em the riot act
before I did.

Gary Handman

At 08:36 AM 9/14/2006, Jessica wrote:

Any legal tape can be used for legitimate classroom instruction ( as
opposed to an open showing on campus)
Just curious is the company in question the sole provider of said items
Actually they must be given that they can put a disclaimer on the DVD so I
guess the manufactuar it themselves

The only "trick" will be that I assume you will have to get someone else to
make the purchase as they would be
Likely to reject one coming from them.

There is however one BIG problem if they REQUIRE you to agree in order to
purchase the title. For instance if you are ordering on line and up pops
Something that says " you agree to abide by our terms and conditions" and
it lists the restriction it would
In fact become a contract and a contract WOULD trump copyright law

Basically if the seller REQUIRES the buyer to "sign" off in some way they
can add these restrictions
They could also say that you couldn't show it on Sundays IF they put it in
the contract and you
Signed it , either on the internet or on an order form

You should do whatever you can to AVOID signing something but if it is
required you are kind of
screwed

On 9/14/06 10:18 AM, "Susan Albrecht" <albrechs@wabash.edu> wrote:

Hey, everyone.
I'd love to know what you all think of this. A well-respected (by me,
too!) company from whom I've purchased many times in the past has always
had a distinction between college/corporate use and public library/high
school use in its pricing. This I know is their perogative, because it's
simple price tiering with no kind of claim made about usage needs.
However. Now there is a "home video" option at, not surprisingly, a lower
price yet. Here's the warning one gets when one puts such an item in one's
cart:

HOME VIDEO - program comes with a warning against classroom use
periodically during the program - more information The "more information"
link provides this:


Home video purchasers may use the videos in non-institutional contexts
only. At two points during home video videocassettes script will appear
over the image stating that this videocassette has been purchased for home
use only and may not be used in class, circulated in an institutional
library or be exhibited to the general public.

Now, I just don't think this can be done. Once a "home use" option has
been offered up, it's fair game for libraries whose collections are used
only for 1) individual checkout or 2) classroom use. WE DON'T NEED PPR in
our case, because this will be used in only those two ways I've just
mentioned, and we are COVERED by the face-to-face teaching exemption. Or
is the insertion of this script in the video supposed to act as a
"contract" between seller & buyer?

Am I wrong to feel justified in purchasing the "Home Video" option?
Susan at Wabash College


Susan Albrecht

Acquisitions Coordinator

Wabash College Lilly Library

Crawfordsville, IN

x6216

albrechs@wabash.edu


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"If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice."--Neil Peart

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<body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dblue style=3D'tab-interval:.5in'>

<div class=3DSection1>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3DGramE><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Because History =
Channel
is morally superior to California Newsreel?</span></font></span><font =
size=3D2
color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3DGramE><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Or because =
they&#8217;re
cheap?</span></font></span><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span=
></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><span
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>&nbsp;</span><span
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>&nbsp;</span><span class=3DGramE>j</span>. =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font =
size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>

<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabindex=3D-1>

</span></font></div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font =
size=3D2
face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
owner-videolib@lists.berkeley.edu =
[mailto:owner-videolib@lists.berkeley.edu] <b><span
style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Jerry Notaro<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Thursday, September =
14, 2006
3:32 PM<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> =
videolib@lists.berkeley.edu<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [Videolib] =
Would like
your thoughts on this one</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D1 face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;
font-family:Verdana'>AND one of the reasons we buy so many of your =
products!<br>
<br>
Jerry</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3D1 =
face=3DVerdana><span
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Verdana'><br>
&nbsp;<br>
</span></font><font size=3D1 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:blue'>Truthfully, it's amazing to me that they =
are
actively trying to lose you as a customer and you are fighting with them =
just
so you can remain their customer. &nbsp;It should be the other way =
around!
&nbsp;Seeing this makes me VERY glad that we offer all of our content to =
the
educational market at our &quot;home video&quot; prices .... (aside from =
the
fact I couldn't morally justify this to myself!).<br>
</span></font><font size=3D1 face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;
font-family:Verdana'><br>
&nbsp;<br>
</span></font><font size=3D1 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:blue'>Regards,<br>
Shawn Brock<br>
Manager, Education Sales<br>
The History Channel<br>
203-353-7217<br>
shawn.brock@aetn.com<br>
</span></font><font size=3D1 face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;
font-family:Verdana'><br>
</span></font><font size=3D1 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:blue'>. &nbsp;</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D1 face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;
font-family:Verdana'><br>
&nbsp;<br>
</span></font><font size=3D1 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:
Tahoma'>-----Original Message-----<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b> Susan Albrecht =
&nbsp;[<a
href=3D"mailto:albrechs@wabash.edu%5d">mailto:albrechs@wabash.edu]</a> =
<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Thursday, September =
14, 2006
&nbsp;1:27 PM<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> =
videolib@lists.berkeley.edu<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: =
&nbsp;[Videolib]
Would like your thoughts on this one<br>
<br>
</span></font><font size=3D1 face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;
font-family:Verdana'>Well, &nbsp;guys, let me just announce who it is.
&nbsp;Not sure if they have a &nbsp;representative here in the group, =
but I
seem to recall they do. &nbsp;&nbsp;(Larry?) &nbsp;It's California =
Newsreel,
and I have always enjoyed doing &nbsp;business with them, and it would =
be
rather hard for me to NOT do business with &nbsp;them since their films =
are
popular with several of our profs. &nbsp;&nbsp;<br>
<br>
So... I guess not surprisingly... I'm getting mixed feedback. =
&nbsp;&nbsp;Some
are saying &quot;This is ridiculous and we should challenge them&quot; =
and
others &nbsp;are saying &quot;Well, if it pops up &amp; you click 'OK' =
then
you're agreeing to &nbsp;their terms.&quot; &nbsp;Sigh. &nbsp;<br>
<br>
How 'bout my pointing out that the &nbsp;disclaimer they issue states
&quot;videocassette&quot; and I was in fact going to &nbsp;purchase the =
DVD?
&nbsp;I still kinda like that one as a way around it. &nbsp;:))<br>
<br>
And yeah, Jessica, I've had it happen before (with a diff. company) =
&nbsp;that
they called me when I tried to place an order for home use video w/ my
&nbsp;college credit card and told me they could not complete the order.
&nbsp;In &nbsp;that case, I just logged back on their site, used my =
personal
credit card, had &nbsp;it shipped to my home addy, then got reimbursed =
by the
college. &nbsp;&nbsp;Illegal? &nbsp;I don't think so. &nbsp;Unethical? =
&nbsp;I don't
think &nbsp;so. &nbsp;In that case there wasn't any &quot;contract&quot;
situation; they just didn't &nbsp;want to sell a video labelled home use =
to
someone at an institution, and I &nbsp;thought that was balderdash since =
I was
purchasing for library use.<br>
<br>
I'm &nbsp;still thinking this one over, so keep those thoughts rolling =
in, if
you &nbsp;would!<br>
<br>
Susan, who guesses if Newsreel.org has a rep here, the
&nbsp;&quot;videocassette&quot; language will shortly be changed to
&quot;videocassette or &nbsp;disc.&quot;<br>
<br>
<br>
At 12:03 PM 9/14/2006, you wrote:<br>
&nbsp;</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D1 face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;
font-family:Verdana'>Seems this is a contractual (not &nbsp;a legal) =
situation:
&nbsp;the company is putting forward conditions for sale &nbsp;and use =
and the
user, in buying, agrees to the contact. &nbsp;&nbsp;The &nbsp;whole HOME =
VIDEO
issue is just a weird smokescreen...<br>
<br>
I wouldn't do &nbsp;business with these guys, or if I did, I read em the =
riot
act before I &nbsp;did.<br>
<br>
Gary Handman<br>
<br>
<br>
At 08:36 AM 9/14/2006, Jessica wrote:<br>
&nbsp;</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D1 face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;
font-family:Verdana'>Any legal &nbsp;tape can be used &nbsp;for =
legitimate
classroom instruction ( as opposed &nbsp;to an open showing on =
campus)<br>
Just curious is the company in question &nbsp;the sole provider of said =
items<br>
Actually they must be given that they &nbsp;can put a disclaimer on the =
DVD so
&nbsp;I guess the manufactuar it &nbsp;themselves<br>
<br>
The only &quot;trick&quot; will be that I assume you will have to =
&nbsp;get
someone else to make the purchase as they would be <br>
Likely to &nbsp;reject one coming from them.<br>
<br>
There is however one BIG problem if &nbsp;they REQUIRE you to agree in =
order to
purchase the title. For instance if &nbsp;you are ordering on line and =
up pops<br>
Something that says &quot; you agree to &nbsp;abide by our terms and
conditions&quot; and it lists the restriction it &nbsp;would<br>
In fact become a contract and a contract WOULD trump copyright =
&nbsp;law<br>
<br>
Basically if the seller REQUIRES the buyer to &quot;sign&quot; off in
&nbsp;some way they can add these restrictions<br>
They could also say that you &nbsp;couldn't show &nbsp;it on Sundays IF =
they
put it in the contract and &nbsp;you<br>
Signed it , either on the internet or on an order form<br>
<br>
You &nbsp;should do whatever you can to AVOID signing something but if =
it is
&nbsp;required you are kind of<br>
screwed<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On 9/14/06 10:18 &nbsp;AM, &quot;Susan Albrecht&quot;
&lt;albrechs@wabash.edu&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Hey, everyone.<br>
&nbsp;I'd love to know what you all think of this. &nbsp;A =
&nbsp;well-respected
(by me, too!) company from whom I've purchased many &nbsp;times in the =
past has
always had a distinction between &nbsp;college/corporate use and public
library/high school use in its &nbsp;pricing. &nbsp;This I know is their
perogative, because it's simple &nbsp;price tiering with no kind of =
claim made
about usage needs.<br>
&nbsp;However. &nbsp;Now there is a &quot;home video&quot; option at, =
not
&nbsp;surprisingly, a lower price yet. &nbsp;Here's the warning one gets
&nbsp;when one puts such an item in one's cart:<br>
<br>
&nbsp;<font color=3Dnavy><span style=3D'color:navy'>HOME VIDEO - program =
comes with
a &nbsp;warning against classroom use periodically during the program - =
more
&nbsp;information </span></font>The &quot;more information&quot; link =
provides
this:<br>
<br>
&nbsp;<br>
&nbsp;<font color=3Dnavy><span style=3D'color:navy'>Home video =
purchasers may use
the &nbsp;videos in non-institutional contexts only. At two points =
during home
&nbsp;video videocassettes script will appear over the image stating =
that
&nbsp;this videocassette has been purchased for home use only and may =
not be
&nbsp;used in class, circulated in an institutional library or be =
exhibited
&nbsp;to the general public. <br>
<br>
</span></font>Now, I just don't think this can be done. &nbsp;Once a =
&quot;home
use&quot; &nbsp;option has been offered up, it's fair game for libraries =
whose
&nbsp;collections are used only for 1) individual checkout or 2) =
classroom
&nbsp;use. &nbsp;WE DON'T NEED PPR in our case, because this will be =
used in
&nbsp;only those two ways I've just mentioned, and we are COVERED by the
&nbsp;face-to-face teaching exemption. &nbsp;Or is the insertion of this
&nbsp;script in the video supposed to act as a &quot;contract&quot; =
between
seller &nbsp;&amp; buyer?<br>
<br>
&nbsp;Am I wrong to feel justified in purchasing the &quot;Home =
Video&quot;
&nbsp;option?<br>
&nbsp;Susan at <st1:place w:st=3D"on"><st1:PlaceName =
w:st=3D"on">Wabash</st1:PlaceName>
<st1:PlaceType w:st=3D"on">College</st1:PlaceType></st1:place> =
&nbsp;</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3D1 =
face=3DVerdana><span
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Verdana'><br>
&nbsp;<br>
Susan Albrecht<br>
&nbsp;<br>
Acquisitions Coordinator<br>
&nbsp;<br>
<st1:place w:st=3D"on"><st1:PlaceName w:st=3D"on">Wabash</st1:PlaceName> =
<st1:PlaceType
w:st=3D"on">College</st1:PlaceType></st1:place> Lilly Library<br>
&nbsp;<br>
<st1:place w:st=3D"on"><st1:City w:st=3D"on">Crawfordsville</st1:City>, =
<st1:State
w:st=3D"on">IN</st1:State></st1:place><br>
&nbsp;<br>
x6216<br>
&nbsp;<br>
albrechs@wabash.edu<br>
<br>
&nbsp;<br>
*************************************************************************=
********<br>
&nbsp;<br>
&quot;If you choose not to decide, you still have made a =
choice.&quot;--Neil
&nbsp;Peart<br>
&nbsp;<br>
*************************************************************************=
********</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

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VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and distributors.