RE: [Videolib] Would like your thoughts on this one

Brock, Shawn (Shawn.Brock@aetn.com)
Thu, 14 Sep 2006 13:49:07 -0400

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I've been watching this one with some interest as you can imagine ..... My
opinion is this:

a) In general, this can't be considered a term of the sale if they are
presenting this term after the sale happens.
b) The legal exemption that allows face-to-face instructional use doesn't
allow companies to override it based on alternative pricing.
c) They CAN simply refuse to do business with you, but anything short of
that is simply their attempt to get you to voluntarily comply (especially if
they dress up their policy with legal sounding terms and bindings) so they
can charge you the price they feel is appropriate for their content. Note
that I say what they feel is appropriate ... they're only right if you agree
to it as their customer.

Truthfully, it's amazing to me that they are actively trying to lose you as
a customer and you are fighting with them just so you can remain their
customer. It should be the other way around! Seeing this makes me VERY
glad that we offer all of our content to the educational market at our "home
video" prices .... (aside from the fact I couldn't morally justify this to
myself!).


Regards,
Shawn Brock
Manager, Education Sales
The History Channel
203-353-7217
shawn.brock@aetn.com <mailto:shawn.brock@aetn.com>

.

-----Original Message-----
From: Susan Albrecht [mailto:albrechs@wabash.edu]
Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2006 1:27 PM
To: videolib@lists.berkeley.edu
Subject: Re: [Videolib] Would like your thoughts on this one

Well, guys, let me just announce who it is. Not sure if they have a
representative here in the group, but I seem to recall they do. (Larry?)
It's California Newsreel, and I have always enjoyed doing business with
them, and it would be rather hard for me to NOT do business with them since
their films are popular with several of our profs.

So... I guess not surprisingly... I'm getting mixed feedback. Some are
saying "This is ridiculous and we should challenge them" and others are
saying "Well, if it pops up & you click 'OK' then you're agreeing to their
terms." Sigh.

How 'bout my pointing out that the disclaimer they issue states
"videocassette" and I was in fact going to purchase the DVD? I still kinda
like that one as a way around it. :))

And yeah, Jessica, I've had it happen before (with a diff. company) that
they called me when I tried to place an order for home use video w/ my
college credit card and told me they could not complete the order. In that
case, I just logged back on their site, used my personal credit card, had it
shipped to my home addy, then got reimbursed by the college. Illegal? I
don't think so. Unethical? I don't think so. In that case there wasn't
any "contract" situation; they just didn't want to sell a video labelled
home use to someone at an institution, and I thought that was balderdash
since I was purchasing for library use.

I'm still thinking this one over, so keep those thoughts rolling in, if you
would!

Susan, who guesses if Newsreel.org has a rep here, the "videocassette"
language will shortly be changed to "videocassette or disc."

At 12:03 PM 9/14/2006, you wrote:

Seems this is a contractual (not a legal) situation: the company is putting
forward conditions for sale and use and the user, in buying, agrees to the
contact. The whole HOME VIDEO issue is just a weird smokescreen...

I wouldn't do business with these guys, or if I did, I read em the riot act
before I did.

Gary Handman

At 08:36 AM 9/14/2006, Jessica wrote:

Any legal tape can be used for legitimate classroom instruction ( as
opposed to an open showing on campus)
Just curious is the company in question the sole provider of said items
Actually they must be given that they can put a disclaimer on the DVD so I
guess the manufactuar it themselves

The only "trick" will be that I assume you will have to get someone else to
make the purchase as they would be
Likely to reject one coming from them.

There is however one BIG problem if they REQUIRE you to agree in order to
purchase the title. For instance if you are ordering on line and up pops
Something that says " you agree to abide by our terms and conditions" and it
lists the restriction it would
In fact become a contract and a contract WOULD trump copyright law

Basically if the seller REQUIRES the buyer to "sign" off in some way they
can add these restrictions
They could also say that you couldn't show it on Sundays IF they put it in
the contract and you
Signed it , either on the internet or on an order form

You should do whatever you can to AVOID signing something but if it is
required you are kind of
screwed

On 9/14/06 10:18 AM, "Susan Albrecht" <albrechs@wabash.edu> wrote:

Hey, everyone.

I'd love to know what you all think of this. A well-respected (by me, too!)
company from whom I've purchased many times in the past has always had a
distinction between college/corporate use and public library/high school use
in its pricing. This I know is their perogative, because it's simple price
tiering with no kind of claim made about usage needs.

However. Now there is a "home video" option at, not surprisingly, a lower
price yet. Here's the warning one gets when one puts such an item in one's
cart:

HOME VIDEO - program comes with a warning against classroom use periodically
during the program - more information

The "more information" link provides this:

Home video purchasers may use the videos in non-institutional contexts only.
At two points during home video videocassettes script will appear over the
image stating that this videocassette has been purchased for home use only
and may not be used in class, circulated in an institutional library or be
exhibited to the general public.

Now, I just don't think this can be done. Once a "home use" option has been
offered up, it's fair game for libraries whose collections are used only for
1) individual checkout or 2) classroom use. WE DON'T NEED PPR in our case,
because this will be used in only those two ways I've just mentioned, and we
are COVERED by the face-to-face teaching exemption. Or is the insertion of
this script in the video supposed to act as a "contract" between seller &
buyer?

Am I wrong to feel justified in purchasing the "Home Video" option?

Susan at Wabash College

Susan Albrecht
Acquisitions Coordinator
Wabash College Lilly Library
Crawfordsville, IN
x6216
albrechs@wabash.edu

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*****
"If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice."--Neil Peart
****************************************************************************
*****

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Message

I've been watching this one with some interest as you can imagine ..... My opinion is this:
 
a)  In general, this can't be considered a term of the sale if they are presenting this term after the sale happens.
b)  The legal exemption that allows face-to-face instructional use doesn't allow companies to override it based on alternative pricing.  
c)  They CAN simply refuse to do business with you, but anything short of that is simply their attempt to get you to voluntarily comply (especially if they dress up their policy with legal sounding terms and bindings) so they can charge you the price they feel is appropriate for their content.  Note that I say what they feel is appropriate ... they're only right if you agree to it as their customer.
 
Truthfully, it's amazing to me that they are actively trying to lose you as a customer and you are fighting with them just so you can remain their customer.  It should be the other way around!  Seeing this makes me VERY glad that we offer all of our content to the educational market at our "home video" prices .... (aside from the fact I couldn't morally justify this to myself!).
 
 
Regards,
Shawn Brock
Manager, Education Sales
The History Channel
203-353-7217
shawn.brock@aetn.com
 
.  
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Susan Albrecht [mailto:albrechs@wabash.edu]
Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2006 1:27 PM
To: videolib@lists.berkeley.edu
Subject: Re: [Videolib] Would like your thoughts on this one

Well, guys, let me just announce who it is.  Not sure if they have a representative here in the group, but I seem to recall they do.  (Larry?)  It's California Newsreel, and I have always enjoyed doing business with them, and it would be rather hard for me to NOT do business with them since their films are popular with several of our profs. 

So... I guess not surprisingly... I'm getting mixed feedback.  Some are saying "This is ridiculous and we should challenge them" and others are saying "Well, if it pops up & you click 'OK' then you're agreeing to their terms."  Sigh. 

How 'bout my pointing out that the disclaimer they issue states "videocassette" and I was in fact going to purchase the DVD?  I still kinda like that one as a way around it. :))

And yeah, Jessica, I've had it happen before (with a diff. company) that they called me when I tried to place an order for home use video w/ my college credit card and told me they could not complete the order.  In that case, I just logged back on their site, used my personal credit card, had it shipped to my home addy, then got reimbursed by the college.  Illegal?  I don't think so.  Unethical?  I don't think so.  In that case there wasn't any "contract" situation; they just didn't want to sell a video labelled home use to someone at an institution, and I thought that was balderdash since I was purchasing for library use.

I'm still thinking this one over, so keep those thoughts rolling in, if you would!

Susan, who guesses if Newsreel.org has a rep here, the "videocassette" language will shortly be changed to "videocassette or disc."


At 12:03 PM 9/14/2006, you wrote:
Seems this is a contractual (not a legal) situation:  the company is putting forward conditions for sale and use and the user, in buying, agrees to the contact.   The whole HOME VIDEO issue is just a weird smokescreen...

I wouldn't do business with these guys, or if I did, I read em the riot act before I did.

Gary Handman


At 08:36 AM 9/14/2006, Jessica wrote:
Any legal tape can be used  for legitimate classroom instruction ( as opposed to an open showing on campus)
Just curious is the company in question the sole provider of said items
Actually they must be given that they can put a disclaimer on the DVD so  I guess the manufactuar it themselves

The only "trick" will be that I assume you will have to get someone else to make the purchase as they would be
Likely to reject one coming from them.

There is however one BIG problem if they REQUIRE you to agree in order to purchase the title. For instance if you are ordering on line and up pops
Something that says " you agree to abide by our terms and conditions" and it lists the restriction it would
In fact become a contract and a contract WOULD trump copyright law

Basically if the seller REQUIRES the buyer to "sign" off in some way they can add these restrictions
They could also say that you couldn't show  it on Sundays IF they put it in the contract and you
Signed it , either on the internet or on an order form

You should do whatever you can to AVOID signing something but if it is required you are kind of
screwed




On 9/14/06 10:18 AM, "Susan Albrecht" <albrechs@wabash.edu> wrote:

Hey, everyone.
I'd love to know what you all think of this.  A well-respected (by me, too!) company from whom I've purchased many times in the past has always had a distinction between college/corporate use and public library/high school use in its pricing.  This I know is their perogative, because it's simple price tiering with no kind of claim made about usage needs.
However.  Now there is a "home video" option at, not surprisingly, a lower price yet.  Here's the warning one gets when one puts such an item in one's cart:

HOME VIDEO - program comes with a warning against classroom use periodically during the program - more information
The "more information" link provides this:

Home video purchasers may use the videos in non-institutional contexts only. At two points during home video videocassettes script will appear over the image stating that this videocassette has been purchased for home use only and may not be used in class, circulated in an institutional library or be exhibited to the general public.

Now, I just don't think this can be done.  Once a "home use" option has been offered up, it's fair game for libraries whose collections are used only for 1) individual checkout or 2) classroom use.  WE DON'T NEED PPR in our case, because this will be used in only those two ways I've just mentioned, and we are COVERED by the face-to-face teaching exemption.  Or is the insertion of this script in the video supposed to act as a "contract" between seller & buyer?

Am I wrong to feel justified in purchasing the "Home Video" option?
Susan at Wabash College

Susan Albrecht
Acquisitions Coordinator
Wabash College Lilly Library
Crawfordsville, IN
x6216
albrechs@wabash.edu

*********************************************************************************
"If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice."--Neil Peart
*********************************************************************************

------_=_NextPart_001_01C6D826.13AE6170-- VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and distributors.