RE: [Videolib] off air recording and copyright

jrosner@kino.com
Mon, 31 Jul 2006 12:47:10 -0400

Michael & Company
I guess I am just about to lose it on this one.
An off air copy is NOT legal and "fair use" has NOTHING to
do with it. I am really getting tired of a small minority using
anything to justify using program ,obtained in any manner because
they are an educational instition and they want to.
The previous poster used provisions of the section involving
making a DUPLICATE OF LEGALLY OBTAINED copy if that copy is detiorating
and a replacement is not avaialable and then MIXED it with "Fair Use"
I really think it is pointless to go over the concept that EVERY case
EVER involving "fair use" and every site, even academic ones explains
that "fair use" involves when you can use a PORTION of a work as part
of ANOTHER work ( Transformative) I know Gary and folks like to point
out that "portion " is only a factor but we are dancing on the head
of pin here. Find me ANY copyright lawyer up to and including the electronic
frontier folks who believe that "fair use" would allow the use of an
entire work let alone the entire work of an ILLEGAL COPY. Michael
to answer your specific question as I pointed out earlier those
guidlines were I imagine put in place to give educational institutions
a little leeway to use what I suspect they thought of as educational
related material for a short time but it is irrelevent because it is
NOT in the copyright law and the copyright law ALWAYS requires material
be a legal copy.

Can we please,please have a little common sense here ( Gary???)
If you want to make the arguement that "fair use" allows to
use an entire work ( and show it to public audience per a previous thread)
I suggest you get some legal back up but to argue that you can tape
ANYTHING off air and is legal to use as long as you like is just
nuts. Still no one has answered for me why you could not use dupes
of off air copies sold on eBay etc. Tape every movie TCM runs that
is not released and put in your collection etc.

I think the arrogance that we just want to use what we want to use
and if the rights holer has not made it legally available I am going
to get it anyway I can is staggering. Basically you just obliterate
copyright law and the rights of filmakers & distributors
"Sorry bud your film was broadcast in 1995 on WOR and I got a copy from
my cousin so I can use it"

Ok that really is IT for me. I AM on vacation and if you all really
BELIEVE that you can tape anything you want off TV ( or buy a copy from
someone who did) I am in the WRONG business.

Quoting "Brewer, Michael" <brewerm@u.library.arizona.edu>:

> Jessica,
>
> I am just trying to understand the law here. I am working through it,
> so please don't jump to any conclusions on my motives. It is simply my
> way of investigating the question.
>
> I am just coming to terms with the fact that a copy can be legal for
> certain purposes, and not for others. If the making of the copy is done
> for fair use purposes, then the use of that copy, it seems, would also
> always have to be limited to other purposes that fit within fair use.
>
> Of course, this seems obvious, but I had always considered a copy either
> legal or illegal, not legal or illegal based on the context of its use.
>
>
> In the section 108 scenario (film is excluded from this portion of 108),
> the copy is clearly legal, but can, then, the owner of the copy do
> whatever he/she wants with it? The burden is put on the
> library/archive, rather than the owner, so it just isn't clear to me.
>
> mb
>
> Michael Brewer
> Slavic Studies, German Studies & Media Arts Librarian
> University of Arizona Library A210
> 1510 E. University
> P.O. Box 210055
> Tucson, AZ 85721
> Voice: 520.307.2771
> Fax: 520.621.9733
> brewerm@u.library.arizona.edu
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-videolib@lists.berkeley.edu
> [mailto:owner-videolib@lists.berkeley.edu] On Behalf Of jrosner@kino.com
> Sent: Friday, July 28, 2006 3:36 PM
> To: videolib@lists.berkeley.edu
> Subject: RE: [Videolib] off air recording and copyright
>
> Actually an "off air" copy is fact an illegal copy
> The "guidelines " were presumably gesture of realism to allow
> teachers to use items short term but it was NEVER agreed to by rights
> holders
> and as you are all fond of pointing out has no official place in
> copyright law. The Betamax decision was again VERY clear that
> taping was legal ONLY for home/personal use.
> The idea that you can tape someting off TV and just use it
> because essentially it has not been released for your convenience
> by the rights holder is totally absurd and makes a mockery of the
> entire concept of a "legal copy". Under your theory this would extend
> to bootleg copies sold on ebay IF they were taped of TV because heck
> does it matter WHO taped them ?
> Home made videos are NOT legal copies and I want to ask Michael
> if you are anyone on the list seriously doubts that if this went
> to court, it would if anything lead to elimination of the
> guidlines and prevent the use of ANY off air item.
>
> Bascically what is going on here is an attempt to justify using
> clearly illegal material because heck educatators ought to be able
> to use anything they want and while you would LIKE to obtain it
> legally , you will get it anyway you can.
>
> I find it not only legally ridiculous but insulting to filmmakers,
> distributors, actors etc and everyone else involved in works
> who would expect LIBARIANS at least to respect copyright
>
>
> Quoting "Brewer, Michael" <brewerm@u.library.arizona.edu>:
>
> > All,
> >
> > Cindy,
> >
> > I think it depends on how the photocopy was acquired. If a professor
> > acquired a copy of an out of print book (and unavailable for purchase)
> > through a library or archive that copied it for him under Section 108,
> > then his further legal use of that copy should not pose any issues.
> >
> > It is true that 108 states that the library should not make a copy of
> an
> > entire work for a user if they have reason to believe it will be used
> > for purposes other than research, scholarship & private study
> purposes.
> > However, that is for the library to worry about at the time the copy
> was
> > made. If the professor later decides he/she would like to put this
> book
> > on reserve (or do anything else with it that is legal), there is
> nothing
> > saying he/she can't. There is no license that comes with the item
> saying
> > it can only be used in a particular way.
> >
> > Additionally, is an off-air copy in fact an illegal copy? How can it
> be
> > a legal copy for a certain amount of time, and then suddenly illegal?
> I
> > don't think it is the copy that is illegal here (though I could be
> wrong
> > - I'd like to hear if others have more info on this). The question
> is,
> > is the use illegal.
> >
> > Anyone have more info on this one?
> >
> > mb
> >
> > Michael Brewer
> > Slavic Studies, German Studies & Media Arts Librarian
> > University of Arizona Library A210
> > 1510 E. University
> > P.O. Box 210055
> > Tucson, AZ 85721
> > Voice: 520.307.2771
> > Fax: 520.621.9733
> > brewerm@u.library.arizona.edu
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-videolib@lists.berkeley.edu
> > [mailto:owner-videolib@lists.berkeley.edu] On Behalf Of
> > Badilla-Melendez, Cindy
> > Sent: Friday, July 28, 2006 9:00 AM
> > To: 'videolib@lists.berkeley.edu'
> > Subject: RE: [Videolib] off air recording and copyright
> >
> > Would you put on course reserve an entire book made on photocopy? I
> > would
> > not.
> >
> > We don't put on course reserve anything that is a illegal copy.
> > __________________________________________________
> > Cindy Badilla-Melendez
> > Media Resources Librarian
> > O'Shaughnessy-Frey Library,
> > University of St. Thomas
> > phone (651) 962-5464
> > fax (651) 962-5406
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Rick Provine [mailto:provine@depauw.edu]
> > Sent: Friday, July 28, 2006 10:22 AM
> > To: ghandman@library.berkeley.edu; videolib@lists.berkeley.edu
> > Subject: Re: [Videolib] off air recording and copyright
> >
> > i certainly wouldn't add it to the collection...but we are talking
> about
> > a personal copy on reserve...
> >
> > >>> ghandman@library.berkeley.edu 7/28/2006 11:08:08 AM >>>
> > yeah, I agree, Rick. Classroom use of stuff, OK, but the sticking
> > point is whether long-term retention (for eg in a library collection)
> > meets Fair Use tests...I personally don't think it does.
> >
> > Gary
> >
> >
> > At 06:59 AM 7/28/2006, you wrote:
> > >I will take a stab at this one...
> > >
> > >Lets look at the Fair Use argument. Just becauise the off-air
> > >guidelines exist, that doesn't mean you can't make a Fair Use case
> > for
> > >an off-air recording. This one seems compelling to me.
> > >
> > >- It is not commercially available (at any price, much less a
> > >"reasonable" price)
> > >- The impact on the original work is nil
> > >- The purpose of the use is educational, and you are not making
> > copies
> > >or otherwise distributing
> > >
> > >The fact that the content is not available any other way, and there
> > is
> > >no other available means for the faculty member to utilize this
> > content
> > >for his course makes this a defensible fair use argument. If this
> > were
> > >a Disney title, who deliberately manipulates out-of-print periods to
> > >increase market value, it might be different. There is a used market
> > >and there are options to obtain legal copies.
> > >
> > >But where is the harm here relative to the educational value?
> > >Education is not in and of itself the criteria for fair use, but it
> is
> > a
> > >factor and, in this case, feels right to me. I would allow it in
> > this
> > >case.
> > >
> > >Rick
> > >
> > >
> > >_____________________________
> > >Rick Provine
> > >Director of Libraries
> > >DePauw University
> > >11 East Larabee Street
> > >Greencastle, IN 46135
> > >provine@depauw.edu
> > >office 765-658-4435
> > >mobile 765-301-0262
> > >fax 765-658-4445
> > >
> > > >>> cmhealy@waketech.edu 7/28/2006 9:25 AM >>>
> > >OK,OK -
> > >Wait one second here. I know copyright is murky and filled with mere
> > >guidelines as opposed to rules and laws and I know that there are no
> > >copyright police around to bust me, but one area I am confident
> > about
> > >is off-air taping. It does not seem ambiguous that off-air tapes are
> > >good for only a short time - 10 days ish - and then they have to be
> > >destroyed.
> > >
> > >I am really surprised that at least two replies to my initial query
> > >have suggested that this prof can go right on ahead and put a three
> > >year
> > >old taped-from-TV show on reserve. I also know that copyright law is
> > >constantly up for interpretation but this seems a clear case. I don't
> > >think it even merits "a closer look". If this item doesn't clearly
> > >violate copyright, I will turn in my jr. deputy copyright cop badge
> > >and
> > >decoder ring for good and let things slide which would make every
> > >single
> > >person I work with jump for joy.
> > >
> > >Those of you who are academic librarians who work directly with media
> > >and who don't care to hedge you bets with "take another look" or
> > >"probably" or "depending on the details", please state clearly why
> > you
> > >would absolutely put this old home made tape on reserve.
> > >
> > >Ciara
> > >
> > > >>> notaro@stpt.usf.edu 7/28/2006 8:22 am >>>
> > >
> > > > FYI I have off air copies of THE GLITTERING PRIZES which PBS aired
> > > > in the late 70s. It is considered to be one the best British
> > > > series ever made. Never released in any format in any country
> > > > Think I can loan out those puppies for classroom use ?
> > >
> > >Absolutely!
> > >
> > >Jerry
> > >
> > >
> > >VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of
> > >issues relating to the selection, evaluation,
> > >acquisition,bibliographic
> > >control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats
> > >in
> > >libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will
> > >serve
> > >as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a
> > >channel
> > >of communication between libraries,educational institutions, and
> > video
> > >producers and distributors.
> > >VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of
> > >issues relating to the selection, evaluation,
> > acquisition,bibliographic
> > >control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats
> > in
> > >libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will
> > serve
> > >as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a
> > channel
> > >of communication between libraries,educational institutions, and
> > video
> > >producers and distributors.
> > >VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of
> > >issues relating to the selection, evaluation,
> > >acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current
> > >and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It
> > >is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool for
> > >video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between
> > >libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and
> > distributors.
> >
> > Gary Handman
> > Director
> > Media Resources Center
> > Moffitt Library
> > UC Berkeley
> > ghandman@library.berkeley.edu
> > http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/MRC
> >
> > *****
> >
> > "In societies where modern conditions of production prevail,
> > all of life presents itself as an immense accumulation of
> > spectacles."
> > --Guy Debord
> >
> >
> > VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of
> > issues relating to the selection, evaluation,
> acquisition,bibliographic
> > control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats
> in
> > libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will
> serve
> > as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a
> channel
> > of communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video
> > producers and distributors.
> > VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of
> > issues
> > relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic
> > control,
> > preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in
> libraries
> > and
> > related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an
> > effective
> > working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of
> communication
> > between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and
> > distributors.
> > VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of
> > issues relating to the selection, evaluation,
> acquisition,bibliographic
> > control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats
> in
> > libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will
> serve
> > as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a
> channel
> > of communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video
> > producers and distributors.
> >
> > VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of
> issues
> > relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic
> control,
> > preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in
> libraries and
> > related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an
> effective
> > working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of
> communication
> > between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and
> > distributors.
>
>
> VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of
> issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic
> control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in
> libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve
> as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel
> of communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video
> producers and distributors.
>
>
> VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues
> relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control,
> preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and
> related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective
> working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication
> between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and
> distributors.

VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and distributors.