RE: [Videolib] question on copyrights

i (clarkjc@jmu.edu)
Tue, 28 Feb 2006 08:14:57 -0500

Gary, Mark,

Thanks for these leads. Tech staff here will be following them
up, since we're always looking for the next step in developing
online delivery at my institution.

Jeff

---- Original message ----
>Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2006 16:26:19 -0800
>From: Gary Handman <ghandman@library.berkeley.edu>
>Subject: RE: [Videolib] question on copyrights
>To: videolib@library.berkeley.edu
>
>Hi Jeff and Mark and all
>
>I've been messing around with the encoders developed by the good
>folks at zentu (http://www.vx30.com/)... Their software
allows one
>to encode from avi, quicktime, windows media or real files: it
>crunches (that's a highly technical term) the files into a
file that
>is delivered via a java-based player. Pretty impossible to
download, I think.
>None of the fancy authentication stuff Mark is talking about,
but you
>can always stick the files in an IP or password authenticated
directory.
>
>Check out
>http://sunsite3.berkeley.edu/videodir/digitalvideotests/koyaan.html

>(using a free, test version of the encoder)...I claim fair
use of the
>content: quoting in the service of criticism and
scholarship...hehehe
>
>gary
>
>PS, we've actually gone ahead and bought the software...will
encode
>in both java and flash video...
>
>
>At 10:40 AM 2/27/2006, you wrote:
>>[Care to elaborate on these protective technologies?]
>>
>>Hi Jeff,
>>
>>One example of such protective technologies, is from Niche
Solutions (
>>1-610-391-9389 Earl or Phil...great guys ).
>>
>>They take a video, in Quicktime format, and insert a media
"key", into
>>the file via the Quicktime software. They provide their own
proprietary
>>media player that connects to the Internet, when opening the
video file.
>>The player, encoded with the patron's individual account
information,
>>then checks to see if there is a current reservation for the
particular
>>viewer/patron. The length of reservation, number of
concurrent views,
>>etc can all be controlled. If you don't have a reservation
to view the
>>content, you cannot open the file. If you wish to set the
file to only
>>be viewed by one person at one time, you can certainly do
so. The only
>>"downside", if you wish to call it a downside, is the need
for an
>>Internet connection to open the file. The vendor has gone to
great
>>measure to ensure the protection of "further downstream
dissemination".
>>Note that this software accompanies their media center
software, and
>>includes the web "portion" as well as the database and the
download
>>controls. It rolls out quite easily, and product can be
delivered via
>>your own servers, or through "rented" space on the net (such as
>>Speedera, etc).
>>
>>If you have more questions, feel free to contact me or the
vendor.
>>
>>Mark
>>******************************************
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: videolib-bounces@library.berkeley.edu
>>[mailto:videolib-bounces@library.berkeley.edu] On Behalf Of
>>clarkjc@jmu.edu
>>Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 10:33 AM
>>To: videolib@library.berkeley.edu
>>Subject: RE: [Videolib] question on copyrights
>>
>>Mark, everyone...
>>
>>Care to elaborate on these protective technologies? I'm in
need of
>>education in this area myself. And would love to learn of a
solution
>>that might work for my own situation....
>>
>>Jeff
>>
>>---- Original message ----
>> >Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 08:34:47 -0500
>> >From: "Mark Kopp" <iu8film@iu08.org>
>> >Subject: RE: [Videolib] question on copyrights
>> >To: <videolib@library.berkeley.edu>
>> >
>> >Very FEW bucks...the software suite is only $49.95
>> >
>> >Looks like there's a free demo too!
>> >
>> >That said, there ARE technologies that can protect
>>copyrighted "copies"
>> >from "further downstream dissemination". I'm not talking about
>> >"scrambling" when attempting to make copies either, such as
>>MacroVision
>> >(sp) or others. Being new, there are certainly some logistic
>>issues, but
>> >nonetheless, there ARE answers.
>> >
>> >Mark
>> >***********************************************
>> >
>> >-----Original Message-----
>> >From: videolib-bounces@library.berkeley.edu
>> >[mailto:videolib-bounces@library.berkeley.edu] On Behalf Of
>>Gary Handman
>> >Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2006 3:35 PM
>> >To: videolib@library.berkeley.edu
>> >Subject: RE: [Videolib] question on copyrights
>> >
>> >You most certainly can make copies of streamed video, if
>>you're cleaver
>> >enough and have a few bucks to spend
>> >
>> >Check out WM Recorder and RM recorder
>> >http://www.wmrecorder.com/
>> >
>> >gary
>> >
>> >
>> >>You can't make copies of streaming videos, when you stream a
>>video you
>> >>can not download it meaning you can't copy it. I maybe wrong
>>but that
>> >>is my understanding for streaming cindy
>> >>
>> >>__________________________________________________
>> >>Cindy Badilla-Melendez
>> >>Media Resources Librarian
>> >>O'Shaughnessy-Frey Library,
>> >>University of St. Thomas
>> >>phone (651) 962-5464
>> >>fax (651) 962-5406
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>-----Original Message-----
>> >>From: Mike Tribby [mailto:mike.tribby@quality-books.com]
>> >>Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2006 10:46 AM
>> >>To: 'videolib@library.berkeley.edu'
>> >>Subject: RE: [Videolib] question on copyrights
>> >>
>> >>"the use would be identical, in effect, as it would were the
>>item owned
>> >
>> >>by the library and just put on reserve. "
>> >>
>> >>"If the use negatively affects the copyright holder, it is
>>probably not
>> >
>> >>a fair use. However, in many cases I don't see that
>>negative effect
>> >>(and have yet to understand what it would be, except for
in the
>> >>situation Jessica described with not owning the copy)."
>> >>
>> >>Streaming is not identical to placing the feature on reserve
>>if it is
>> >>streamed outside the library. The negative effect would be
>>people
>> >>making copies of the streaming video "in the comfort of
>>their dorm
>> >>rooms" or other abodes and doing whatever they pleased with
>>the copies.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>Mike Tribby
>> >>Senior Cataloger
>> >>Quality Books Inc.
>> >>The Best of America's Independent Presses
>> >>
>> >>mailto:mike.tribby@quality-books.com
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>-----Original Message-----
>> >>From: Brewer, Michael [mailto:brewerm@u.library.arizona.edu]
>> >>Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2006 9:59 AM
>> >>To: videolib@library.berkeley.edu
>> >>Subject: RE: [Videolib] question on copyrights
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>All,
>> >>
>> >>What are others' thoughts about fair use and weighing of the
>>4 factors?
>> >>Jessica seems to believe that if one factor weighs against
>>the use (I
>> >>would not call that a violation), then that nixes fair use.
>> This does
>> >>not seem a widely held conviction to me (nor supported by
>>the law), but
>> >
>> >>I wanted to check with others.
>> >>
>> >>I do agree with her point that the digitizing, or using of
>>borrowed
>> >>copies for fair use purposes would be a problem. However,
>>if one
>> >>weighs each case individually, as one should, then this
>>would weigh
>> >>against the effect of the use, and might tip the scales
>>against fair
>> >use.
>> >>Otherwise, the use would be identical, in effect, as it
>>would were the
>> >>item owned by the library and just put on reserve. My sense
>>is that
>> >>effect is really the critical factor in this debate (for
>>streaming
>> >>entire films as long as the use is limited to a class or a
>>restricted
>> >>population for educational purposes and is password
>>protected and
>> >>streamed). If the use negatively affects the copyright
>>holder, it is
>> >>probably not a fair use. However, in many cases I don't see
>>that
>> >>negative effect (and have yet to understand what it would
>>be, except
>> >>for in the situation Jessica described with not owning the
>>copy).
>> >>
>> >>mb
>> >>
>> >>Michael Brewer
>> >>Slavic Studies, German Studies & Media Arts Librarian
>>University of
>> >>Arizona Library A210 1510 E. University P.O. Box 210055
>>Tucson, AZ
>> >>85721
>> >>Voice: 520.307.2771
>> >>Fax: 520.621.9733
>> >>brewerm@u.library.arizona.edu
>> >>
>> >>-----Original Message-----
>> >>From: videolib-bounces@library.berkeley.edu
>> >>[mailto:videolib-bounces@library.berkeley.edu] On Behalf Of
>>Susan
>> >>Albrecht
>> >>Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2006 7:56 AM
>> >>To: videolib@library.berkeley.edu
>> >>Subject: Re: [Videolib] question on copyrights
>> >>
>> >>I think the question, though, Jessica, is why is it WORSE to
>>stream a
>> >>film **that the institution owns** and then password protect
>>it and
>> >>make it available to only a particular class of students,
>>than it would
>> >
>> >>be to have it on reserve? (There is no argument, correct?,
>>that it's
>> >>okay to place
>> >>
>> >>any video a library owns on reserve?) IOW, what most of us
>>have done
>> >>in
>> >>
>> >>the past is take that VHS or DVD that we *own* and place it
>>on reserve.
>> >
>> >>The students in that class would have to come into the
library
>> >>
>> >>during the hours that we're open, check it out and view
it here.
>> >>Streaming
>> >>and making it available, on a restricted basis, only changes
>>the WAY in
>> >
>> >>which those same students view the film. In the streaming
>>situation,
>> >>no
>> >>
>> >>fewer copies of the film are being purchased. So I guess I'm
>> >>scratching my head a little here about why this is worse
>>than the
>> >>old-fashioned reserve system.
>> >>
>> >>Again, if the film were streamed into a classroom, it's no
>>different
>> >>than the faculty member swinging by the library, checking
>>out the video
>> >
>> >>and showing it in his/her classroom. I just don't see why
>>this would
>> >>cut into sales; the institution still has to buy the
>>original copy that
>> >
>> >>it's going to stream. Maybe I'm giving away my position at
>>a very
>> >>small institution in this response, though, and you're
>>really thinking
>> >>of large universities?
>> >>
>> >>Susan at Wabash
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>At 04:20 PM 2/21/2006 -0500, you wrote:
>> >> >I too appreciate the discussion but do think it is more
>>than a
>> >> >stretch and potentially dangerous to suggest that fair use
>>would
>> >> >allow the
>> >>streaming
>> >> >an an entire dramatic film WITHOUT the copyright holders
>>permission.
>> >> >I
>> >>think
>> >> >this goes against decades of accepted copyright and
>>assumes that if
>> >> >you
>> >>only
>> >> >violate ONE element of the 4 factors listed for Fair Use
>>it is OK.
>> >>Taken to
>> >> >its extreme it would also allow to digitize and stream
>>whole books
>> >>under
>> >> >copyright without permission etc. I don't think the idea
>>of 3
>> >> >minutes
>> >>or no
>> >> >more than 10 percent of a work was developed out of thin
>>air. What I
>> >>always
>> >> >like to respond in these cases is that if you feel this IS
>>legal and
>> >>covered
>> >> >than you should have the courage of your convictions and
>>contact the
>> >> >copyright holder be it Kino or Disney and tell them that
>>this is your
>> >
>> >> >understanding of the law and you are going to do it. While
>>I am not a
>> >>big
>> >> >fan of how Disney and over major studios handle stuff ,
>>the truth is
>> >>small
>> >> >companies like Kino don't have the resources for much
>>legal action (
>> >>though
>> >> >we have taken some none at this point has been against an
>>academic
>> >> >institution).
>> >> >As for what a company would "lose" if its films are
>>streamed into a
>> >> >classroom, the simple answer is the revenue we need to
>>survive. The
>> >>average
>> >> >Kino film costs $30 and most are bought by wholesalers at
>>a steep
>> >>discount
>> >> >If Kino sells a copy of Metropolis for $17 to a school
>>that buys it
>> >>from
>> >> >Ingram or Amazon etc and then streams it to classes all
>>over its
>> >>entire
>> >> >system we simply can't survive. We expect for instance
>>different
>> >>campuses of
>> >> >an institution to buy their own copy ( though can always
>>interlibrary
>> >>loan)
>> >> >and on very popular films a school might buy a few copies.
>>What if
>> >> >the school just borrowed a legal copy from the local
>>rental store and
>> >>digitized
>> >> >that for streaming? I assume you can see the problem. Now
>>I think we
>> >>are
>> >> >more than open to working with schools on streaming when
>>we have
>> >> >rights
>> >>and
>> >> >can have some limits on the terms. There was an old joke
>>by Goddard
>> >>that
>> >> >eventually Hollywood would just make one film a year and
>>everyone
>> >> >would watch that, well my fear of the slippery slope of
>>thinking
>> >> >that you
>> >>can
>> >> >digitize whole films under "Fair Use" is that some day
>>everyone will
>> >>want to
>> >> >digitize it from the SAME copy.
>> >> >
>> >> >For the record I personally take a liberal view of these
>>things and
>> >>have
>> >> >allowed several schools that have closed circuit campus
>>systems to
>> >> >use
>> >>our
>> >> >films AT NO EXTRA charge if it is just being sent to a
>>single class
>> >> >but
>> >>this
>> >> >is a lot different from giving unlimited access to both
>>classes and
>> >>students
>> >> >in those classes.
>> >> >
>> >> >It is already difficult and getting harder by the day to
>>put out ANY
>> >>small
>> >> >film on DVD. There are so many wonderful foreign & classic
>>films we
>> >>COULD
>> >> >put out if only we knew enough people would buy them.
>>While streaming
>> >>should
>> >> >theoretically be some kind of additional revenue stream
>>under your
>> >>scenario
>> >> >it would almost certainly be the death of putting any of
>>these films
>> >>out.
>> >> >As it stands I doubt we will ever put out another African
>>film and I
>> >>can't
>> >> >get Kino to release the 3 silent films by women directors
>>that I
>> >>produced on
>> >> >video on ONE DVD for $30 because their is not enough of a
>>market. I
>> >> >understand we really all want to work together so that
>>everyone gets
>> >>what
>> >> >They need but suggesting that schools can digitize whole
>>films
>> >> >without compensation to rights holders is almost
>>guaranteed to make
>> >> >fewer and
>> >>fewer
>> >> >small films legally available
>> >> >
>> >> >OK long rant sorry still jet lagged
>> >> >Because of lack of market
>> >>
>> >>Susan Albrecht
>> >>Acquisitions Coordinator
>> >>Wabash College Lilly Library
>> >>Crawfordsville, IN
>> >>x6216
>> >>albrechs@wabash.edu
>> >>
>>
>>**********************************************************************
>> >>*
>> >>*
>> >>*********
>> >>"If you choose not to decide, you still have made a
>>choice."--Neil
>> >>Peart
>>
>>**********************************************************************
>> >>*
>> >>*
>> >>*********
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>_______________________________________________
>> >>Videolib mailing list
>> >>Videolib@library.berkeley.edu
>> >>http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/videolib
>> >>
>> >>_______________________________________________
>> >>Videolib mailing list
>> >>Videolib@library.berkeley.edu
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>> >>_______________________________________________
>> >>Videolib mailing list
>> >>Videolib@library.berkeley.edu
>> >>http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/videolib
>> >>_______________________________________________
>> >>Videolib mailing list
>> >>Videolib@library.berkeley.edu
>> >>http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/videolib
>> >
>> >Gary Handman
>> >Director
>> >Media Resources Center
>> >Moffitt Library
>> >UC Berkeley
>> >ghandman@library.berkeley.edu
>> >http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/MRC
>> >
>> >*****
>> >
>> >"In societies where modern conditions of production prevail,
>> > all of life presents itself as an immense
>>accumulation of
>> >spectacles."
>> > --Guy Debord
>> >
>> >
>> >_______________________________________________
>> >Videolib mailing list
>> >Videolib@library.berkeley.edu
>> >http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/videolib
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >_______________________________________________
>> >Videolib mailing list
>> >Videolib@library.berkeley.edu
>> >http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/videolib
>>
>>===========
>>Jeff Clark
>>Director
>>Media Resources MSC 1701
>>James Madison University
>>Harrisonburg VA 22807
>>clarkjc@jmu.edu (email)
>>540-568-6770 (phone)
>>540-568-7037 (fax)
>>_______________________________________________
>>Videolib mailing list
>>Videolib@library.berkeley.edu
>>http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/videolib
>>
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Videolib mailing list
>>Videolib@library.berkeley.edu
>>http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/videolib
>
>Gary Handman
>Director
>Media Resources Center
>Moffitt Library
>UC Berkeley
>ghandman@library.berkeley.edu
>http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/MRC
>
>*****
>
>"In societies where modern conditions of production prevail,
> all of life presents itself as an immense
accumulation of
>spectacles."
> --Guy Debord
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Videolib mailing list
>Videolib@library.berkeley.edu
>http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/videolib

===========
Jeff Clark
Director
Media Resources MSC 1701
James Madison University
Harrisonburg VA 22807
clarkjc@jmu.edu (email)
540-568-6770 (phone)
540-568-7037 (fax)
_______________________________________________
Videolib mailing list
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