Re: [Videolib] question on copyrights

Linda Hellman (lhellman@optonline.net)
Thu, 23 Feb 2006 10:02:51 -0500

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Kopp" <iu8film@iu08.org>
To: <videolib@library.berkeley.edu>
Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 9:15 AM

"Hey, it's GOT to better than being a hockey fan, right?"

Only if you're rooting for the Pathetic Penguins. Go Rangers.

Linda Hellman,Regional Sales Manager
Ambrose Video Publishing
145 W.45th Street -Suite 1115
New York NY 10036
1.888.802.6715
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Kopp" <iu8film@iu08.org>
To: <videolib@library.berkeley.edu>
Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 9:15 AM
Subject: RE: [Videolib] question on copyrights

> Hey, it's GOT to better than being a hockey fan, right?
>
> ****************************************************
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: videolib-bounces@library.berkeley.edu
> [mailto:videolib-bounces@library.berkeley.edu] On Behalf Of Gary Handman
> Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2006 6:29 PM
> To: videolib@library.berkeley.edu
> Subject: Re: [Videolib] question on copyrights
>
> Cubs...cubs...hmmmm
>
> My daughter still have to remind me constantly of the difference between
> the Oakland Raiders and the Oakland As...(ain't they both lacrosse
> teams?)
>
> g.
>
>
> At 01:41 PM 2/22/2006, you wrote:
> >Thanks Gary
> >Now if I could only get you to be a Cub fan
> >
> >Jessica
> >
> >
> >On 2/22/06 4:00 PM, "Gary Handman" <ghandman@library.berkeley.edu>
> wrote:
> >
> > > I don't think fair use covers entire works in most cases...I do
> > > think that Section 108 as amended allows the digitization of whole
> > > works legally acquired, currently out of distribution, and
> > > determined to be physically at risk. Access in such cases would
> > > have to be fairly limited (library use? campus use?) to meet the
> conditions of fair use.
> > >
> > > Here's where my cynical comment comes in: there is no stipulation
> > > in this part of law that differentiates between feature films and
> > > everything else. I know that Jessica will blow a rod on this, but I
>
> > > think it's true. The reason most of us don't even vaguely consider
> > > doing this is neither technological nor legal...it's because studios
>
> > > have more muscle and are more likely to test the case than
> > > doc/education film folk...
> > >
> > > This is an interesting discussion line...I think, however, that
> > > apples and oranges are being banged together. Wonder, though, if
> > > what's being talked about in this thread is two, possibly three,
> > > distinct types of use: 1. digitization of standing collections of
> > > materials in a library's catalog--whole works, in other words 2)
> > > digitization of materials put on course reserve (either in part or
> > > in
> > > whole) 3) digitization of materials used in synchronous, distance
> > > classroom instruction (in part or in whole). There's obviously
> > > overlap between these three... Obviously, the digitization of
> > > standing collections requires securing a license to do so (unless
> > > Section 108 is invoked). Course reserve materials...well, I think
> > > there's a tendency to want to apply the same types of criteria that
> > > are applied in print reserves (spontaneity, short term retention,
> > > limited access...etc.) Not sure this flies, really. As for
> > > materials required for synchronous teaching in distance ed...TEACH
> > > pretty clearly limits its allowances to portions not wholes...
> > >
> > > The short of it is that while I'll go to the battlements for the
> > > fair use right to digitize and use reasonable portions of works in
> > > connection with learning management systems, classroom teaching,
> > > student and faculty publication, and the like, I can't really see
> > > any fair use justification for digitizing and/or delivering WHOLE
> > > works in any of the above contexts without permission/license.
> > >
> > > Gary
> > >
> > >
> > >> Just curious Gary, irregardless of legal might of a distributor do
> > >> you really think "Fair Use" covers an entire work ? if so Why
> > >> wouldn't educational institutions be able to do pretty much what
> > >> they wanted copying & using whole films books etc and why would the
>
> > >> "time" have been included in the criteria?
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On 2/22/06 12:51 PM, "Gary Handman" <ghandman@library.berkeley.edu>
> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> OK...I've kept atypically mum on this issue, but here goes (I'm in
>
> > >>> full cynical mode this a.m.)
> > >>>
> > >>> The bottom line re the application of fair use tests may have
> > >>> nothing to do with any of the stuff being talked about here: the
> > >>> bottom line to consider in applying the litmus and pushing the
> > >>> envelope (how's that for mixed metaphor?) is copyright holder
> > >>> clout and intellectual property vigilance. Let's face it: there
> > >>> IS no difference at all (nothing whatsoever in the law that makes
> > >>> any distinction) between Disney and small fry doc distributor when
>
> > >>> it comes to applying fair use tests. The reason we balk at even
> > >>> thinking about the former when it comes to claiming fair use or
> > >>> other rights afforded under the law (such as Section 108
> > >>> duplication rights) is the economic might and big legal staffs of
> > >>> the studios. (Jessica, I love you, but that's the way it is).
> > >>> Conversely, there is no difference in the obligation of the user
> > >>> to pay close attention to the potential market impact of our
> actions, regardless of the nature of the content.
> > >>>
> > >>> Gary
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> At 07:58 AM 2/22/2006, you wrote:
> > >>>> All,
> > >>>>
> > >>>> What are others' thoughts about fair use and weighing of the 4
> factors?
> > >>>> Jessica seems to believe that if one factor weighs against the
> > >>>> use (I would not call that a violation), then that nixes fair
> > >>>> use. This does not seem a widely held conviction to me (nor
> > >>>> supported by the law), but I wanted to check with others.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I do agree with her point that the digitizing, or using of
> > >>>> borrowed copies for fair use purposes would be a problem.
> > >>>> However, if one weighs each case individually, as one should,
> > >>>> then this would weigh against the effect of the use, and might
> tip the scales against fair use.
> > >>>> Otherwise, the use would be identical, in effect, as it would
> > >>>> were the item owned by the library and just put on reserve. My
> > >>>> sense is that effect is really the critical factor in this debate
>
> > >>>> (for streaming entire films as long as the use is limited to a
> > >>>> class or a restricted population for educational purposes and is
> > >>>> password protected and streamed). If the use negatively affects
> > >>>> the copyright holder, it is probably not a fair use. However, in
>
> > >>>> many cases I don't see that negative effect (and have yet to
> > >>>> understand what it would be, except for in the situation Jessica
> described with not owning the copy).
> > >>>>
> > >>>> mb
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Michael Brewer
> > >>>> Slavic Studies, German Studies & Media Arts Librarian University
> > >>>> of Arizona Library A210 1510 E. University P.O. Box 210055
> > >>>> Tucson, AZ 85721
> > >>>> Voice: 520.307.2771
> > >>>> Fax: 520.621.9733
> > >>>> brewerm@u.library.arizona.edu
> > >>>>
> > >>>> -----Original Message-----
> > >>>> From: videolib-bounces@library.berkeley.edu
> > >>>> [mailto:videolib-bounces@library.berkeley.edu] On Behalf Of Susan
>
> > >>>> Albrecht
> > >>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2006 7:56 AM
> > >>>> To: videolib@library.berkeley.edu
> > >>>> Subject: Re: [Videolib] question on copyrights
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I think the question, though, Jessica, is why is it WORSE to
> > >>>> stream a film **that the institution owns** and then password
> > >>>> protect it and make it available to only a particular class of
> > >>>> students, than it would be to have it on reserve? (There is no
> > >>>> argument, correct?, that it's okay to place
> > >>>>
> > >>>> any video a library owns on reserve?) IOW, what most of us have
> > >>>> done in
> > >>>>
> > >>>> the past is take that VHS or DVD that we *own* and place it on
> > >>>> reserve. The students in that class would have to come into the
> > >>>> library
> > >>>>
> > >>>> during the hours that we're open, check it out and view it here.
> > >>>> Streaming
> > >>>> and making it available, on a restricted basis, only changes the
> > >>>> WAY in which those same students view the film. In the streaming
>
> > >>>> situation, no
> > >>>>
> > >>>> fewer copies of the film are being purchased. So I guess I'm
> > >>>> scratching my head a little here about why this is worse than the
>
> > >>>> old-fashioned reserve system.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Again, if the film were streamed into a classroom, it's no
> > >>>> different than the faculty member swinging by the library,
> > >>>> checking out the video and showing it in his/her classroom. I
> > >>>> just don't see why this would cut into sales; the institution
> > >>>> still has to buy the original copy that it's going to stream.
> > >>>> Maybe I'm giving away my position at a very small institution in
> > >>>> this response, though, and you're really thinking of large
> > >>>> universities?
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Susan at Wabash
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> At 04:20 PM 2/21/2006 -0500, you wrote:
> > >>>>> I too appreciate the discussion but do think it is more than a
> > >>>>> stretch and potentially dangerous to suggest that fair use would
>
> > >>>>> allow the
> > >>>> streaming
> > >>>>> an an entire dramatic film WITHOUT the copyright holders
> > >>>>> permission. I
> > >>>> think
> > >>>>> this goes against decades of accepted copyright and assumes that
>
> > >>>>> if you
> > >>>> only
> > >>>>> violate ONE element of the 4 factors listed for Fair Use it is
> OK.
> > >>>> Taken to
> > >>>>> its extreme it would also allow to digitize and stream whole
> > >>>>> books
> > >>>> under
> > >>>>> copyright without permission etc. I don't think the idea of 3
> > >>>>> minutes
> > >>>> or no
> > >>>>> more than 10 percent of a work was developed out of thin air.
> > >>>>> What I
> > >>>> always
> > >>>>> like to respond in these cases is that if you feel this IS legal
>
> > >>>>> and
> > >>>> covered
> > >>>>> than you should have the courage of your convictions and contact
>
> > >>>>> the copyright holder be it Kino or Disney and tell them that
> > >>>>> this is your understanding of the law and you are going to do
> > >>>>> it. While I am not a
> > >>>> big
> > >>>>> fan of how Disney and over major studios handle stuff , the
> > >>>>> truth is
> > >>>> small
> > >>>>> companies like Kino don't have the resources for much legal
> > >>>>> action (
> > >>>> though
> > >>>>> we have taken some none at this point has been against an
> > >>>>> academic institution).
> > >>>>> As for what a company would "lose" if its films are streamed
> > >>>>> into a classroom, the simple answer is the revenue we need to
> > >>>>> survive. The
> > >>>> average
> > >>>>> Kino film costs $30 and most are bought by wholesalers at a
> > >>>>> steep
> > >>>> discount
> > >>>>> If Kino sells a copy of Metropolis for $17 to a school that buys
>
> > >>>>> it
> > >>>> from
> > >>>>> Ingram or Amazon etc and then streams it to classes all over
> > >>>>> its
> > >>>> entire
> > >>>>> system we simply can't survive. We expect for instance different
> > >>>> campuses of
> > >>>>> an institution to buy their own copy ( though can always
> > >>>>> interlibrary
> > >>>> loan)
> > >>>>> and on very popular films a school might buy a few copies. What
> > >>>>> if the school just borrowed a legal copy from the local rental
> > >>>>> store and
> > >>>> digitized
> > >>>>> that for streaming? I assume you can see the problem. Now I
> > >>>>> think we
> > >>>> are
> > >>>>> more than open to working with schools on streaming when we have
>
> > >>>>> rights
> > >>>> and
> > >>>>> can have some limits on the terms. There was an old joke by
> > >>>>> Goddard
> > >>>> that
> > >>>>> eventually Hollywood would just make one film a year and
> > >>>>> everyone would watch that, well my fear of the slippery slope
> > >>>>> of thinking that you
> > >>>> can
> > >>>>> digitize whole films under "Fair Use" is that some day everyone
> > >>>>> will
> > >>>> want to
> > >>>>> digitize it from the SAME copy.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> For the record I personally take a liberal view of these things
> > >>>>> and
> > >>>> have
> > >>>>> allowed several schools that have closed circuit campus systems
> > >>>>> to use
> > >>>> our
> > >>>>> films AT NO EXTRA charge if it is just being sent to a single
> > >>>>> class but
> > >>>> this
> > >>>>> is a lot different from giving unlimited access to both classes
> > >>>>> and
> > >>>> students
> > >>>>> in those classes.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> It is already difficult and getting harder by the day to put out
>
> > >>>>> ANY
> > >>>> small
> > >>>>> film on DVD. There are so many wonderful foreign & classic films
>
> > >>>>> we
> > >>>> COULD
> > >>>>> put out if only we knew enough people would buy them. While
> > >>>>> streaming
> > >>>> should
> > >>>>> theoretically be some kind of additional revenue stream under
> > >>>>> your
> > >>>> scenario
> > >>>>> it would almost certainly be the death of putting any of these
> > >>>>> films
> > >>>> out.
> > >>>>> As it stands I doubt we will ever put out another African film
> > >>>>> and I
> > >>>> can't
> > >>>>> get Kino to release the 3 silent films by women directors that I
> > >>>> produced on
> > >>>>> video on ONE DVD for $30 because their is not enough of a
> > >>>>> market. I understand we really all want to work together so that
>
> > >>>>> everyone gets
> > >>>> what
> > >>>>> They need but suggesting that schools can digitize whole films
> > >>>>> without compensation to rights holders is almost guaranteed to
> > >>>>> make fewer and
> > >>>> fewer
> > >>>>> small films legally available
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> OK long rant sorry still jet lagged Because of lack of market
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Susan Albrecht
> > >>>> Acquisitions Coordinator
> > >>>> Wabash College Lilly Library
> > >>>> Crawfordsville, IN
> > >>>> x6216
> > >>>> albrechs@wabash.edu
> > >>>>
> > >>>> *****************************************************************
> > >>>> *******
> > >>>> *********
> > >>>> "If you choose not to decide, you still have made a
> > >>>> choice."--Neil Peart
> > >>>> *****************************************************************
> > >>>> *******
> > >>>> *********
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> _______________________________________________
> > >>>> Videolib mailing list
> > >>>> Videolib@library.berkeley.edu
> > >>>> http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/videolib
> > >>>>
> > >>>> _______________________________________________
> > >>>> Videolib mailing list
> > >>>> Videolib@library.berkeley.edu
> > >>>> http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/videolib
> > >>>
> > >>> Gary Handman
> > >>> Director
> > >>> Media Resources Center
> > >>> Moffitt Library
> > >>> UC Berkeley
> > >>> ghandman@library.berkeley.edu
> > >>> http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/MRC
> > >>>
> > >>> *****
> > >>>
> > >>> "In societies where modern conditions of production prevail,
> > >>> all of life presents itself as an immense accumulation
>
> > >>> of spectacles."
> > >>> --Guy Debord
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> _______________________________________________
> > >>> Videolib mailing list
> > >>> Videolib@library.berkeley.edu
> > >>> http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/videolib
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Proud Resident of a BLUE STATE
> > >>
> > >> Jessica Rosner
> > >> Kino International
> > >> 333 W 39th St. 503
> > >> NY NY 10018
> > >> jrosner@kino.com
> > >> 212-629-6880
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> Videolib mailing list
> > >> Videolib@library.berkeley.edu
> > >> http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/videolib
> > >
> > > Gary Handman
> > > Director
> > > Media Resources Center
> > > Moffitt Library
> > > UC Berkeley
> > > ghandman@library.berkeley.edu
> > > http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/MRC
> > >
> > > *****
> > >
> > > "In societies where modern conditions of production prevail,
> > > all of life presents itself as an immense accumulation
> > > of spectacles."
> > > --Guy Debord
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Videolib mailing list
> > > Videolib@library.berkeley.edu
> > > http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/videolib
> >
> >
> >
> >Proud Resident of a BLUE STATE
> >
> >Jessica Rosner
> >Kino International
> >333 W 39th St. 503
> >NY NY 10018
> >jrosner@kino.com
> >212-629-6880
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Videolib mailing list
> >Videolib@library.berkeley.edu
> >http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/videolib
>
> Gary Handman
> Director
> Media Resources Center
> Moffitt Library
> UC Berkeley
> ghandman@library.berkeley.edu
> http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/MRC
>
> *****
>
> "In societies where modern conditions of production prevail,
> all of life presents itself as an immense accumulation of
> spectacles."
> --Guy Debord
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Videolib mailing list
> Videolib@library.berkeley.edu
> http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/videolib
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Videolib mailing list
> Videolib@library.berkeley.edu
> http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/videolib
_______________________________________________
Videolib mailing list
Videolib@library.berkeley.edu
http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/videolib