[Videolib] Re: [Vidalia] question on copyrights

Jessica Rosner (jrosner@kino.com)
Wed, 22 Feb 2006 12:16:53 -0500

Well again I think we have to agree to disagree
irregardless of the issue of streaming I don't think
there is ANY circumstance in which "fair use' can be interpreted
to cover an entire feature film. It never has been and every guideline
I have ever seen issued by both distributors and educational media
has been pretty clear about this. How and if distributors want to
And can license rights for films which they own is another issue.

The question of changing the format and inevitable insecurity of
"password" protection have been valid points but the bottom line
to me is that "Fair Use' will NEVER cover an entire film book
article etc

On 2/22/06 11:36 AM, "Brewer, Michael" <brewerm@u.library.arizona.edu>

> Jessica,
> I have not been talking about streaming to anyone anytime anyplace (or
> anywhere close to this). I have been discussing in which situations (if
> any) fair use would cover the streaming of an entire film to a class or
> to reserves (only to those registered, and only for the duration of the
> class).
> If a copy is damaged, a replacement would need to be purchased
> regardless of whether or not you had made a digital copy for fair use
> purposes (unless the film is unavailable in an unused copy, per section
> 108. In that situation, you could make a replacement copy).
> The issue of needing to stream the film simultaneously to different
> viewers (requiring more than one copy) IS an issue that must be
> considered when fair use is weighed. This could easily be seen (by me,
> for example) as negatively affecting the copyright holder (especially if
> the film is in print). As such, it might very well tip the scales
> against fair use. I don't think this issue is insurmountable, however.
> There are means of allowing only a single digital transmission at a
> time. This is an inconvenience to the user, but would protect the
> copyright holder.
> mb
> Michael Brewer
> Slavic Studies, German Studies & Media Arts Librarian
> University of Arizona Library A210
> 1510 E. University
> P.O. Box 210055
> Tucson, AZ 85721
> Voice: 520.307.2771
> Fax: 520.621.9733
> brewerm@u.library.arizona.edu
> -----Original Message-----
> From: videolib-bounces@library.berkeley.edu
> [mailto:videolib-bounces@library.berkeley.edu] On Behalf Of Jessica
> Rosner
> Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2006 8:12 AM
> To: videolib@library.berkeley.edu
> Subject: Re: [Videolib] question on copyrights
> It is different both practically and legally. Frankly if you want the
> total
> convenience of any student being able to watch a film at any time in
> as one media person once said to me referring to closed circuit system
> "in the convenience of their dorm room" you are going to have to pay for
> it.
> However in many, many cases it won't be available at any price due to
> issues
> I have mentioned in previous posts. Frankly physical copies have
> accepted
> built in limitations. You might need more than one to meet demand, you
> will
> almost inevitably have to replace a lost or damaged copy, bottom line is
> that over time it might cost you more than the $20 you paid for a copy.
> What
> You want is to pay $20 for a film, digitize a copy and have it forever
> and
> make available to any student or prof who needs it in conjunction with
> an
> academic activity. There may of course be a middle ground here in which
> You might pay say a whopping $20 a year to do this but even that means
> that those rights have to available for purchase and for many films they
> are not and in some important cases may never be. And again per my
> previous
> post if it were legal to digitize a whole feature film for streaming
> there
> would be no difference between a copy you bought from a distributor and
> a
> copy you took out of video store, got from Netflix or borrowed on
> interlibrary loan. I don't know of any small company selling what I will
> call retail feature films that could survive if this were so.
> On a much more important topic
> GO CUBS ( shoot me Gary , Spring Training started and Susan roots for
> the
> Right team)
> On 2/22/06 9:55 AM, "Susan Albrecht" <albrechs@wabash.edu> wrote:
>> I think the question, though, Jessica, is why is it WORSE to stream a
> film
>> **that the institution owns** and then password protect it and make it
>> available to only a particular class of students, than it would be to
> have
>> it on reserve? (There is no argument, correct?, that it's okay to
> place
>> any video a library owns on reserve?) IOW, what most of us have done
> in
>> the past is take that VHS or DVD that we *own* and place it on
>> reserve. The students in that class would have to come into the
> library
>> during the hours that we're open, check it out and view it here.
> Streaming
>> and making it available, on a restricted basis, only changes the WAY
> in
>> which those same students view the film. In the streaming situation,
> no
>> fewer copies of the film are being purchased. So I guess I'm
> scratching my
>> head a little here about why this is worse than the old-fashioned
> reserve
>> system.
>> Again, if the film were streamed into a classroom, it's no different
> than
>> the faculty member swinging by the library, checking out the video and
>> showing it in his/her classroom. I just don't see why this would cut
> into
>> sales; the institution still has to buy the original copy that it's
> going
>> to stream. Maybe I'm giving away my position at a very small
> institution
>> in this response, though, and you're really thinking of large
> universities?
>> Susan at Wabash
>> At 04:20 PM 2/21/2006 -0500, you wrote:
>>> I too appreciate the discussion but do think it is more than a
> stretch
>>> and potentially dangerous to suggest that fair use would allow the
> streaming
>>> an an entire dramatic film WITHOUT the copyright holders permission.
> I think
>>> this goes against decades of accepted copyright and assumes that if
> you only
>>> violate ONE element of the 4 factors listed for Fair Use it is OK.
> Taken to
>>> its extreme it would also allow to digitize and stream whole books
> under
>>> copyright without permission etc. I don't think the idea of 3
> minutes or no
>>> more than 10 percent of a work was developed out of thin air. What I
> always
>>> like to respond in these cases is that if you feel this IS legal and
> covered
>>> than you should have the courage of your convictions and contact the
>>> copyright holder be it Kino or Disney and tell them that this is your
>>> understanding of the law and you are going to do it. While I am not a
> big
>>> fan of how Disney and over major studios handle stuff , the truth is
> small
>>> companies like Kino don't have the resources for much legal action (
> though
>>> we have taken some none at this point has been against an academic
>>> institution).
>>> As for what a company would "lose" if its films are streamed into a
>>> classroom, the simple answer is the revenue we need to survive. The
> average
>>> Kino film costs $30 and most are bought by wholesalers at a steep
> discount
>>> If Kino sells a copy of Metropolis for $17 to a school that buys it
> from
>>> Ingram or Amazon etc and then streams it to classes all over its
> entire
>>> system we simply can't survive. We expect for instance different
> campuses of
>>> an institution to buy their own copy ( though can always interlibrary
> loan)
>>> and on very popular films a school might buy a few copies. What if
> the
>>> school just borrowed a legal copy from the local rental store and
> digitized
>>> that for streaming? I assume you can see the problem. Now I think we
> are
>>> more than open to working with schools on streaming when we have
> rights and
>>> can have some limits on the terms. There was an old joke by Goddard
> that
>>> eventually Hollywood would just make one film a year and everyone
> would
>>> watch that, well my fear of the slippery slope of thinking that you
> can
>>> digitize whole films under "Fair Use" is that some day everyone will
> want to
>>> digitize it from the SAME copy.
>>> For the record I personally take a liberal view of these things and
> have
>>> allowed several schools that have closed circuit campus systems to
> use our
>>> films AT NO EXTRA charge if it is just being sent to a single class
> but this
>>> is a lot different from giving unlimited access to both classes and
> students
>>> in those classes.
>>> It is already difficult and getting harder by the day to put out ANY
> small
>>> film on DVD. There are so many wonderful foreign & classic films we
>>> put out if only we knew enough people would buy them. While streaming
> should
>>> theoretically be some kind of additional revenue stream under your
> scenario
>>> it would almost certainly be the death of putting any of these films
> out.
>>> As it stands I doubt we will ever put out another African film and I
> can't
>>> get Kino to release the 3 silent films by women directors that I
> produced on
>>> video on ONE DVD for $30 because their is not enough of a market. I
>>> understand we really all want to work together so that everyone gets
> what
>>> They need but suggesting that schools can digitize whole films
> without
>>> compensation to rights holders is almost guaranteed to make fewer and
> fewer
>>> small films legally available
>>> OK long rant sorry still jet lagged
>>> Because of lack of market
>> Susan Albrecht
>> Acquisitions Coordinator
>> Wabash College Lilly Library
>> Crawfordsville, IN
>> x6216
>> albrechs@wabash.edu
> ************************************************************************
> ******
>> ***
>> "If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice."--Neil
> Peart
> ************************************************************************
> ******
>> ***
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> Proud Resident of a BLUE STATE
> Jessica Rosner
> Kino International
> 333 W 39th St. 503
> NY NY 10018
> jrosner@kino.com
> 212-629-6880
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Proud Resident of a BLUE STATE

Jessica Rosner
Kino International
333 W 39th St. 503
NY NY 10018

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