Re: [Videolib] Illinois State University Copyright Controversy

Jessica Rosner (jrosner@kino.com)
Thu, 09 Feb 2006 13:25:47 -0500

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> I can only tell you how Kino operates. The rights holder for our films ge=
ts
> 50% of all money from rentals
> for public showings. In some cases this is the filmmaker such as Julie Da=
sh or
> Bette Gordon in many cases
> it is a producer or production company. Whatever contracts filmmakers hav=
e
> would continue after death
> and as long as we collect fees so that if a filmmaker died and was recei=
ving
> royalties from us, their estate
> or heirs would most definitely be entitled to this money. New Yorker is f=
airly
> similar to Kino and I can tell
> you that the Universities do a lot better than we do. We are not =B3non=B2 p=
rofit
> but for the most part
> we are paid less with far fewer benefits not because of evil capitalism =
but
> because we survive hand to mouth
> trying to maintain both an audience and business that brings foreign & cl=
assic
> art films to the US. I am sure
> there is no one in the world of real independent film that makes anywhere=
near
> what a college president makes
> and most of us would actually be thrilled to have the salary & benefits =
of a
> librarian.
>=20
> Again the irony is that it is the films of companies like Kino, New Yorke=
r and
> Milestone that seem
> to be most often shown illegally by groups claiming some non existent
> educational exemption and
> we are also the ones least able to spend money to take legal action. We a=
re in
> fact relying at least
> in part on the honesty of educational institutions to understand the
> copyright laws and see they
> are enforced. It has always seemed VERY strange that universities seem to
> understand that
> if they show WEDDING CRASHERS or KING KONG to a student audience they nee=
d to
> pay for it but
> if a group wants to show GRAND ILLUSION , KINGS & QUEENS or CACHE this i=
s
> =B3educational
> so they don=B9t need to pay for it.
>=20
> Just my two cents
>=20
>=20
> I don't particularly have an interest in this myself - I'm just a librari=
an,
> our library doesn't have public screenings of any sort, so I'm not really=
on
> the side of the surreptitious screeners or the distributors.
> =20
> That said, I can't say I can completely agree with the "distributors are =
just
> helping out the filmmakers by collecting the money for them so they can p=
ay
> their rent and make more fine films" perspective. Yes, the groups in que=
stion
> should have paid the PP fees, because that's the law. Distributors aren'=
t
> exactly starving artists - they're businesses, and businesses exist to ma=
ke
> money. What about the fees collected by distributors for films where the
> filmmakers are dead? Those don't go to the poor filmmaker described belo=
w, or
> his composers, cinematographers, or actors, do they? (Forgive me if I'm
> misspeaking here, I'm not well-versed on the fine points of the money cha=
in of
> the film distribution industry.)
> =20
> Like I said, I'm not defending the poor little film society, nor accostin=
g the
> rich greedy film distributor for collecting what's theirs to collect. I'=
m
> sort of just playing devil's advocate, pointing out that it's probably no=
t
> often as clear cut as described or that distributors always have such
> goodhearted motivations when they seek to collect PPR fees. Those
> distributors on the list that differ, please accept my apologies, I don't=
mean
> to portray you as the bad guys at all. (Dennis, I don't know that I've s=
een
> your words on how profitable distributors are, that may be prior to my
> videolib subscription, so again, I'm not speaking as informedly as some o=
thers
> could. I actually tend to agree more with your perspective that the
> universities should be funding these screenings in the first place and av=
oid
> the whole problem.)
> =20
> Marc Tiar
> Washoe County Library
>> =20
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: videolib-bounces@library.berkeley.edu
>> [mailto:videolib-bounces@library.berkeley.edu]On Behalf Of MileFilms@ao=
l.com
>> Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2006 7:32 AM
>> To: videolib@library.berkeley.edu
>> Subject: Re: [Videolib] Illinois State University Copyright Controvers=
y
>>=20
>>=20
>> In a message dated 2/8/06 4:57:35 PM, mbailey@carleton.edu writes:
>>=20
>>=20
>> =20
>> To summarize briefly: A student film group at Illinois State
>> University has received from New Yorker Films a bill for $8000 for
>> past VHS and DVD screenings on campus for which public performance
>> rights were not purchased. The film group feels that the screenings
>> were part of the educational activities of the University; New Yorker
>> begs to differ.
>=20
>=20
> I agree with Jessica and New Yorker with this. It's always posed as us (=
the
> poor little film society) versus the rich, greedy film distributor. We w=
on't
> get into how profitable film distributors are -- I've expressed my viewp=
oints
> here before on that matter.
>=20
> However, when you look at it as any institution with a multi-million dol=
lar
> endowment (who should be spending more on the liberal and fine arts, but
> that's besides the point) against a filmmaker who depends on his royalti=
es to
> pay his rent (and we have MANY more of those than we do filmmakers with
> houses on the beach), it takes on a different perspective. That also doe=
sn't
> even get into the fact that many of them are still paying their composer=
s,
> cinematographers and actors from these royalties as well.
>=20
> I am sure that a filmmaker is totally glad for the "free" exposure as he
> struggles to raise money to make his next documentary.
>=20
> I noticed that the ISU film society has removed all past schedules from =
the
> websites, so I suspect they feel New Yorker and the other distributors mi=
ght
> be right. So I hope this raises the issues at other campuses with similar
> situations.
>=20
> Dennis Doros
> Milestone Film & Video
> PO Box 128
> Harrington Park, NJ 07640
> Phone: (800) 603-1104 or (201) 767-3117
> Fax: (201) 767-3035
> Email: milefilms@aol.com
> Website: http://www.milestonefilms.com
>=20
> "Welcome to New Jersey.
> Big Hair, Big Heart, Big Fun!"
> - Amy Heller
>=20

Proud Resident of a BLUE STATE
=20
Jessica Rosner
Kino International
333 W 39th St. 503
NY NY 10018
jrosner@kino.com
212-629-6880

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Re: [Videolib] Illinois State University Copyright Controversy</TITL= E> </HEAD> <BODY> <BLOCKQUOTE><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF"><FONT FACE=3D"Arial"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size= :12.0px'>I can only tell you how Kino operates. The rights holder for our fi= lms gets 50% of all money from rentals<BR> for public showings. In some cases this is the filmmaker such as Julie Dash= or Bette Gordon in many cases<BR> it is a producer or production company. Whatever contracts filmmakers have = would continue after death<BR> and as  long as we collect fees so that if a filmmaker died and was re= ceiving royalties from us, their estate<BR> or heirs would most definitely be entitled to this money. New Yorker is fai= rly similar to Kino and I can tell <BR> you that the Universities do a lot better than we do. We are not  R= 20;non” profit but for the most part<BR> we are paid  less with far fewer benefits not because of evil capitali= sm but because we survive hand to mouth<BR> trying to maintain both an audience and business that brings foreign & = classic art films to the US. I am sure <BR> there is no one in the world of real independent film that makes anywhere n= ear what a college president makes<BR> and most of us would actually be thrilled to have the salary  & be= nefits of a librarian.<BR> <BR> Again the irony is that it is the films of companies like Kino, New Yorker = and Milestone that seem<BR> to be most often shown illegally by groups claiming some non existent educa= tional exemption and<BR> we are also the ones least able to spend money to take legal action. We are= in fact relying at least<BR> in part on the honesty of educational institutions  to understand the = copyright laws and see they<BR> are enforced. It has always seemed VERY strange that universities seem to u= nderstand that<BR> if they show WEDDING CRASHERS or KING KONG to a student audience they need = to pay for it but<BR> if a group wants to show GRAND ILLUSION , KINGS & QUEENS or  CACHE= this is  “educational<BR> so they don’t need to pay for it.<BR> <BR> Just my two cents<BR> <BR> <BR> I don't particularly have an interest in this myself - I'm just a librarian= , our library doesn't have public screenings of any sort, so I'm not really = on the side of the surreptitious screeners or the distributors.  <BR> </SPAN></FONT></FONT><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:12.0px'><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, He= lvetica, Arial"> <BR> </FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF"><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">That said, I can't say I ca= n completely agree with the "distributors are just helping out the film= makers by collecting the money for them so they can pay their rent and make = more fine films" perspective.  Yes, the groups in question should = have paid the PP fees, because that's the law.  Distributors aren't exa= ctly starving artists - they're businesses, and businesses exist to make mon= ey.  What about the fees collected by distributors for films where the = filmmakers are dead?  Those don't go to the poor filmmaker described be= low, or his composers, cinematographers, or actors, do they?  (Forgive = me if I'm misspeaking here, I'm not well-versed on the fine points of the mo= ney chain of the film distribution industry.)<BR> </FONT></FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"> <BR> </FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF"><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">Like I said, I'm not defend= ing the poor little film society, nor accosting the rich greedy film distrib= utor for collecting what's theirs to collect.  I'm sort of just playing= devil's advocate, pointing out that it's probably not often as clear cut as= described or that distributors always have such goodhearted motivations whe= n they seek to collect PPR fees.   Those distributors on the list = that differ, please accept my apologies, I don't mean to portray you as the = bad guys at all.  (Dennis, I don't know that I've seen your words on ho= w profitable distributors are, that may be prior to my videolib subscription= , so again, I'm not speaking as informedly as some others could.  I act= ually tend to agree more with your perspective that the universities should = be funding these screenings in the first place and avoid the whole problem.)= <BR> </FONT></FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"> <BR> </FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF"><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">Marc Tiar<BR> Washoe County Library<BR> </FONT></FONT></SPAN><BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:12.0px'><FONT FACE=3D= "Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"> <BR> </FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Tahoma">-----Original Message-----<BR> <B>From:</B>  videolib-bounces@library.berkeley.edu  [<a href=3D"ma= ilto:videolib-bounces@library.berkeley.edu]">mailto:videolib-bounces@library= .berkeley.edu]</a><B>On Behalf Of  </B>MileFilms@aol.com<BR> <B>Sent:</B> Thursday, February 09, 2006 7:32  AM<BR> <B>To:</B> videolib@library.berkeley.edu<BR> <B>Subject:</B> Re:  [Videolib] Illinois State University Copyright &n= bsp;Controversy<BR> <BR> </FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Geneva, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><BR> In a message dated 2/8/06 4:57:35  PM, mbailey@carleton.edu writes:<BR= > <BR> <BR>  <BR> To summarize briefly: A student film group at Illinois  State <BR> University has received from New Yorker Films a bill for  $8000 for <B= R> past VHS and DVD screenings on campus for which public  performance <B= R> rights were not purchased. The film group feels that  the screenings <= BR> were part of the educational activities of the  University; New Yorker= <BR> begs to differ.<BR> </FONT></SPAN></BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:12.0px'><FONT FACE=3D"Genev= a, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><BR> <BR> I agree with Jessica and  New Yorker with this. It's always posed as u= s (the poor little film society)  versus the rich, greedy film distribu= tor. We won't get into how profitable  film distributors are -- I've ex= pressed my viewpoints here before on that  matter.<BR> <BR> However, when you look at it as any institution with a  multi-million = dollar endowment (who should be spending more on the liberal and  fine = arts, but that's besides the point) against a filmmaker who depends on  = ;his royalties to pay his rent (and we have MANY more of those than we do &n= bsp;filmmakers with houses on the beach), it takes on a different perspectiv= e.  That also doesn't even get into the fact that many of them are stil= l paying  their composers, cinematographers and actors from these royal= ties as  well.<BR> <BR> I am sure that a filmmaker is totally glad for the "free"  e= xposure as he struggles to raise money to make his next documentary.<BR> <BR> I  noticed that the ISU film society has removed all past schedules fr= om the  websites, so I suspect they feel New Yorker and the other distr= ibutors might  be right. So I hope this raises the issues at other camp= uses with similar  situations.<BR> <BR> Dennis Doros<BR> Milestone Film & Video<BR> PO Box  128<BR> Harrington Park, NJ 07640<BR> Phone: (800) 603-1104 or (201)  767-3117<BR> Fax: (201) 767-3035<BR> Email: milefilms@aol.com<BR> Website:  <a href=3D"http://www.milestonefilms.com">http://www.milestone= films.com</a><BR> <BR> "Welcome to New  Jersey.<BR>         Big Hair, Big  Heart, = Big  Fun!"<BR>             - &= nbsp;Amy Heller<BR> </FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><BR> </FONT></SPAN></BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:12.0px'><FONT FACE=3D"Verda= na, Helvetica, Arial"><BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> Proud Resident of a BLUE STATE<BR>  <BR> Jessica Rosner<BR> Kino International<BR> 333 W 39th St. 503<BR> NY NY 10018<BR> jrosner@kino.com<BR> 212-629-6880<BR> </FONT></SPAN> </BODY> </HTML> <p> <p> --B_3222336348_165776222--<br> <!-- body="end" --> <p> <ul> <!-- next="start" --> <li> <b>In reply to:</b> <a href="0073.html">Tiar, Marc: "RE: [Videolib] Illinois State University Copyright Controversy"</a> <!-- nextthread="start" --> </ul>