RE: [Videolib] another fair use question

Hornbeck, Patty (hornbeck@middlebury.edu)
Wed, 21 Sep 2005 12:16:53 -0400

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Dear Jessica,
=20
The term fair use is just a matter of semantics for some of us because =
we tend to lump these issues together to consider fair use of any =
copyrighted material, but you're right, strictly speaking it's the =
face-to-face teaching exemption we are discussing. On a larger scale, =
it's the issue of whether academic institutions have a responsibility to =
defend and advance teaching and scholarship rights in the face of =
aggressive moves by owners and distributors to defend and expand their =
own turf: the duration of copyright has been extended to ridiculous =
lengths and technological controls and government regulations are =
increasing. Educators have so far been reluctant to challenge the status =
quo in court.=20
=20
Clifford Lynch gave a wonderful keynote address on this issue at the =
intellectual property symposium at the Univ. of Maryland earlier this =
summer and I know I'm paraphrasing his ideas, but I was struck by his =
view of such advocacy as an important academic mission.
=20
You and your company have always bent over backwards to accommodate us, =
as has Swank, but there are a lot of aggressive distributors out there.
=20
Regards,
Patty=20
_________________________________=20
Patricia Hornbeck=20
Media Resources Development Coordinator=20
Middlebury College=20
Library and Information Services/#212=20
Middlebury, VT 05753=20

(802)443-2268 phone=20
(802)443-5698 fax=20
Email: hornbeck@middlebury.edu=20

-----Original Message-----
From: videolib-bounces@library.berkeley.edu =
[mailto:videolib-bounces@library.berkeley.edu]On Behalf Of Jessica =
Rosner
Sent: Wed, September 21, 2005 10:22 AM
To: videolib
Subject: Re: [Videolib] another fair use question

Patty
I empathize and I can't imagine what titles they were or what company =
would charge so much but not you can't push the envelope on this one
The law is very clear and as I get very tired of mentioning this is NOT =
"fair use" ( I think everyone just loves the sound of it). The =
exemption
that allows a whole film to be shown in a class is the "face to face" =
teaching exemption
It is so tempting to say that the cost is just unreasonable to let them =
show it but textbooks are not at INSANE prices so do you
just make copies for students ? Also who gets to judge what is too high =
a price for a particular film under a specific circumstance?
I am afraid it is the rights holder or their distributor not the user. =
I think I probably charge the least of any company out there for
DVD showings because mentally I just see them as having the same value =
as my beloved film prints but I know SWANK does not
see it that way. Also suppose the film your group wanted to show was an =
independent film still owned by the makers ? For some reason
I notice that institutions seem to feel that it is OK to spend a lot =
more to show them.
I am already frustrated by having to explain copyright law to small =
organizations, Jewish Community Centers, local arts groups etc.
I have always been grateful that both public and University library =
people understood that they could not just show movies publicly and not =
pay. If I seem a bit sensitive it maybe that a company like Kino does =
not have the resources to take legal action in most cases ( unless alas =
there is a lot of money involved) and other than forwarding the ones I =
catch to MPAA since they are usually violating studio titles as well, =
there is not much I can do.=20
One more side pet peeve is that often when I tell a group that it will =
cost $100 or $200 to show a film on campus or at local arts venue
they react like I am stealing candy from a baby but I know from =
experience that the EXACT same groups often have speakers, concerts
dance programs etc for which they pay THOUSANDS. In the age of =
Blockbuster & Netflix public film showings have lost their
"value" in the eyes of many but every bit as expensive to distribute =
and have just as much worth artistically

Best I can suggest is to get for Spanish club to deal with some other =
companies and find OTHER films that would not cost as much

Jessica

Let's look at the other side of this for a minute. Because we follow the =
guidelines very closely at Middlebury, the Hispanic Alliance on our =
campus will probably not be screening two Spanish-language movies for =
their group this month. The public performance fee was close to a =
thousand dollars for the two and the club doesn't have that much in =
their budget. It doesn't require too much imagination to see this as =
somewhat of an impediment to learning. Sure, they can see the film if =
it's a part of the Spanish 101 curriculum, but they can't see it as a =
group unless they are able to shell out $1,000 for the privilege. Public =
performance prices for these sorts of programs are way too high. We =
expect to pay those prices for College-wide entertainment-related film =
series but shouldn't have to strain our budgets to offer realistic =
enrichment programs to language groups. We are being fair to the =
distributors, but are we being entirely fair to our students? Do we have =
a responsibility as educators to push the envelope in favor of more =
realistic "fair use"?=20
Patty=20
_________________________________=20
Patricia Hornbeck=20
Media Resources Development Coordinator=20
Middlebury College=20
Library and Information Services/#212=20
Middlebury, VT 05753=20

(802)443-2268 phone=20
(802)443-5698 fax=20
Email: hornbeck@middlebury.edu=20

-----Original Message-----
From: Kim Crowley [ mailto:videolib-bounces@library.berkeley.edu]On =
Behalf Of Kim Crowley
Sent: Tue, September 20, 2005 6:35 PM
To: videolib@library.berkeley.edu
Subject: RE: [Videolib] another fair use question

Thank you, Jessica. I did go the vidoelib archives when I had time and =
found reference to the article that is on the webpage of Library Video =
company. http://www.libraryvideo.com/articles/article7.asp I will =
send this on to my colleague at the community college. =20
=20
kc
=20
=20
=20
Kim Crowley, Director
Flathead County Library phone: 406.758.5826
247 First Avenue East fax: 406.758.5868
Kalispell, MT. 59901-4598
kcrowley@co.flathead.mt.us
=20

-----Original Message-----=20
From: videolib-bounces@library.berkeley.edu on behalf of Jessica Rosner =
=20
Sent: Tue 9/20/2005 2:28 PM=20
To: videolib =20
Cc:=20
Subject: Re: [Videolib] another fair use question

=20

The law happens to very clear on this one. She can show the films to a =
CLASS
of students ENROLLED in THAT class as part of the class instruction
She can NOT show it to a student "group" or "club" only to students who =
are
in her specific class.
There is no such thing as an "educational" exemption. Only a VERY =
specific
"face to face" teaching exemption. FYI this has NOTHING to do with =
"fair
use" but with the above mentioned "face to face"

I am bit tired but I am sure Gary or someone else can post the link or =
text
for this in the copyright code

> Hi all,
>=20
> We have a community college here with a multicultural and global =
issues
> program. The person in charge of this program teaches classes and =
also does
> some community events. She was under the impression (backed up by =
the media
> center, which is not the library) that since she is in a teaching =
environment
> and these films are to further the education of the students, that =
she does
> not have to have any special rights for films like "Crash" and "Maria =
Full of
> Grace." These are films that she would like to show her student =
group, call
> "Global Friends". I called her when I saw "Crash" advertised in an =
email
> newsletter and she has since pulled that film and substituted =
"Invisible
> Children" for which she has permission. But she is still under the =
impression
> that she can show "Crash" at a later date to the student club without
> performance rights (and if they happen to bring their friends, that =
is okay).
>=20
> Can she show these films in the classroom without performance rights? =
Can she
> show them to the Global Club and friends without performance rights?
> Thanks,
> kc
>=20
> Kim Crowley, Director
> Flathead County Library phone: 406.758.5826
> 247 First Avenue East fax: 406.758.5868
> Kalispell, MT. 59901-4598
> kcrowley@co.flathead.mt.us
>=20
>
> _______________________________________________
> Videolib mailing list
> Videolib@library.berkeley.edu
> http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/videolib

Proud Resident of a BLUE STATE

Jessica Rosner
Kino International
333 W 39th St. 503
NY NY 10018
jrosner@kino.com
212-629-6880

_______________________________________________
Videolib mailing list
Videolib@library.berkeley.edu
http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/videolib

Proud Resident of a BLUE STATE
=20
Jessica Rosner
Kino International
333 W 39th St. 503
NY NY 10018
jrosner@kino.com
212-629-6880

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Re: [Videolib] another fair use question

Dear=20 Jessica,
 
The term fair=20 use is just a matter of semantics for some of us because we tend to lump = these=20 issues together to consider fair use of any copyrighted material, but = you're=20 right, strictly speaking it's the face-to-face teaching exemption we are = discussing. On a larger scale, it's the issue of whether academic=20 institutions have a responsibility to defend and advance teaching=20 and scholarship rights in the face of aggressive moves by = owners and=20 distributors to defend and expand their own turf:  the duration of=20 copyright has been extended to ridiculous lengths and technological = controls and=20 government regulations are increasing. Educators have so far been = reluctant to=20 challenge the status quo in court.
 
Clifford=20 Lynch gave a wonderful keynote address on this issue at the intellectual = property symposium at the Univ. of Maryland earlier this summer and I = know I'm=20 paraphrasing his ideas, but I was struck by his view of such advocacy as = an=20 important academic mission.
 
You and your=20 company have always bent over backwards to accommodate us, as has Swank, = but=20 there are a lot of aggressive distributors out = there.
 
Regards,

Patty
_________________________________ =
Patricia Hornbeck =
Media Resources = Development=20 Coordinator
Middlebury College
Library and Information Services/#212
Middlebury, VT = 05753

(802)443-2268 = phone=20
(802)443-5698 = fax=20
Email:=20 hornbeck@middlebury.edu

-----Original Message-----
From:=20 videolib-bounces@library.berkeley.edu=20 [mailto:videolib-bounces@library.berkeley.edu]On Behalf Of = Jessica=20 Rosner
Sent: Wed, September 21, 2005 10:22 AM
To:=20 videolib
Subject: Re: [Videolib] another fair use=20 question

Patty
I empathize and I can’t = imagine what titles=20 they were or what company would charge so much but not you = can’t push the=20 envelope on this one
The law is very clear and as I get very = tired of=20 mentioning  this is NOT  “fair use”  ( I = think everyone just=20 loves the sound of it). The exemption
that allows a whole film to = be=20 shown in a class is the “face to face” teaching = exemption
It is so=20 tempting to say that the cost is just unreasonable to let them show = it but=20 textbooks are  not at INSANE prices so do you
just make = copies for=20 students ? Also who gets to judge what is too high a price for a = particular=20 film under a specific circumstance?
I am afraid it is the rights = holder=20 or their distributor not the user.  I think I probably charge = the least=20 of any company out there for
DVD showings because mentally I just = see=20 them as having the same value as my beloved film prints but I know = SWANK=20 does not
see it that way. Also suppose the film your group wanted = to show=20 was an independent film still owned by the makers ? For some = reason
I=20 notice that institutions seem to feel that it is OK to spend a =  lot=20 more to show them.
I am already frustrated by having to explain = copyright=20 law to small  organizations, Jewish Community Centers, local = arts=20 groups etc.
I have always been grateful that both public and = University=20 library people understood that they could not just show movies = publicly and=20 not pay. If I seem a bit sensitive it maybe that a company like Kino = does=20 not have the resources to take legal action in most cases ( unless = alas=20 there is a lot of money involved) and other than forwarding the ones = I catch=20 to MPAA since they are usually violating studio titles as well, = there is not=20 much I can do.
One more side pet peeve is that often when I tell = a group=20 that it will cost $100 or $200 to show a film on campus or at local = arts=20 venue
they react  like I am stealing candy from a baby but I = know=20 from experience that the EXACT same groups often have speakers,=20 concerts
dance programs etc for which they pay THOUSANDS. In the = age of=20 Blockbuster & Netflix public film showings have lost = their
“value” in=20 the eyes of many but every bit  as expensive to distribute and = have=20 just as much worth artistically

Best I can suggest  is = to get=20 for Spanish club to deal with some other  companies and find = OTHER=20 films that would not cost as much

Jessica


Let's = look at=20 the other side of this for a minute. Because we follow the = guidelines very=20 closely at Middlebury, the Hispanic Alliance on our campus will = probably not=20 be screening two Spanish-language movies for their group this month. = The=20 public performance fee was close to a thousand dollars for the two = and the=20 club doesn't have that much in their budget. It doesn't require too = much=20 imagination to see this as somewhat of an impediment to learning. = Sure, they=20 can see the film if it's a part of the Spanish 101 curriculum, but = they=20 can't see it as a group unless they are able to shell out $1,000 for = the=20 privilege. Public performance prices for these sorts of programs are = way too=20 high. We expect to pay those prices for College-wide = entertainment-related=20 film series but shouldn't have to strain our budgets to offer = realistic=20 enrichment programs to language groups. We are being fair to the=20 distributors, but are we being entirely fair to our students? Do we = have a=20 responsibility as educators to push the envelope in favor of more = realistic=20 "fair use"?
Patty
_________________________________
=20
Patricia = Hornbeck=20
Media Resources Development=20 Coordinator=20
Middlebury = College=20
Library and Information=20 Services/#212=20
Middlebury, VT=20 05753=20

(802)443-2268 = phone=20
(802)443-5698 = fax=20
Email:=20 hornbeck@middlebury.edu=20

-----Original=20 Message-----
From: Kim Crowley  [mailto:videolib-bo= unces@library.berkeley.edu]On=20 Behalf Of Kim  Crowley
Sent: Tue, September 20, = 2005=20 6:35 PM
To:=20  videolib@library.berkeley.edu
Subject: RE: = [Videolib]=20 another fair  use question


Thank you, Jessica.  I = did go=20 the vidoelib archives when I had time  and found reference to = the=20 article that is on the webpage of Library Video  company. =  http://www.lib= raryvideo.com/articles/article7.asp=20   I will send this on to my colleague at the community = college.=20  
 
kc
 
 
 
Kim = Crowley,=20 Director
Flathead County Library   phone:=20  406.758.5826
247 First Avenue East =     fax:=20    406.758.5868
Kalispell, MT.=20 = 59901-4598
kcrowley@co.flathead.mt.us
 

-----Original = Message-----=20
From:  videolib-bounces@library.berkeley.edu on = behalf=20 of Jessica Rosner  
Sent: Tue 9/20/2005 2:28 PM=20
To: videolib  
Cc:
Subject: = Re:=20 [Videolib] another fair use =  question

 

The law=20 happens to very clear on this one. She can show the  films = to a=20 CLASS
of students ENROLLED in THAT  class as part of the =  class instruction
She can NOT show it to a student = "group" or=20 "club" only  to students who are
in her specific = class.
There=20 is no such thing as  an "educational" exemption. Only a = VERY=20 specific
"face to face" teaching  exemption. FYI this = has=20 NOTHING to do with "fair
use" but with the above =  mentioned=20 "face to face"

I am bit tired but I am sure Gary or = someone=20  else can post the link or text
for this in the = copyright=20  code


> Hi all,
>
> We have a = community=20  college here with a multicultural and global = issues
>=20 program.   The person in charge of this program = teaches=20 classes and also does
>  some community events. =  She was=20 under the impression (backed up by the  media
> = center, which=20 is not the library) that since she is in a  teaching=20 environment
> and these films are to further the education = of=20  the students, that she does
> not have to have any = special=20 rights for  films like "Crash" and "Maria Full of
> = Grace."=20  These are films  that she would like to show her = student=20 group, call
> "Global  Friends".  I called her = when I=20 saw "Crash" advertised in an  email
> newsletter and = she has=20 since pulled that film and substituted  "Invisible
>=20 Children" for which she has permission.  But she is =  still=20 under the impression
> that she can show "Crash" at a = later date=20  to the student club without
> performance rights = (and if=20 they happen  to bring their friends, that is okay).
> =
> Can she show  these films in the classroom without = performance rights?  Can  she
> show them to the = Global=20 Club and friends without performance  rights?
>=20 Thanks,
> kc
>
> Kim Crowley, =  Director
>=20 Flathead County Library   phone: =  406.758.5826
>=20 247 First Avenue East      fax:=20   406.758.5868
> Kalispell, MT. = 59901-4598
>=20  kcrowley@co.flathead.mt.us
>
>
>=20  _______________________________________________
> = Videolib=20 mailing  list
> Videolib@library.berkeley.edu
> = http://www= .lib.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/videolib



Proud=20  Resident of a BLUE STATE

Jessica Rosner
Kino=20 International
333  W 39th St. 503
NY NY=20 =  10018
jrosner@kino.com
212-629-6880


______________= _________________________________
Videolib=20  mailing list
Videolib@library.berkeley.edu
http://www= .lib.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/videolib





Proud Resident of a = BLUE=20 STATE
 
Jessica Rosner
Kino International
333 W 39th = St.=20 503
NY NY=20 10018
jrosner@kino.com
212-629-6880
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