RE: [Videolib] another fair use question

Griest, Bryan (BGriest@ci.glendale.ca.us)
Wed, 21 Sep 2005 08:09:14 -0700

This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C5BEBE.52A5AD34
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"

Darn it! She beat me to the punch!
Bryan Griest
Glendale Public Library
-----Original Message-----
From: videolib-bounces@library.berkeley.edu
[mailto:videolib-bounces@library.berkeley.edu]On Behalf Of Jessica Rosner
Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2005 7:22 AM
To: videolib
Subject: Re: [Videolib] another fair use question

Patty
I empathize and I can't imagine what titles they were or what company would
charge so much but not you can't push the envelope on this one
The law is very clear and as I get very tired of mentioning this is NOT
"fair use" ( I think everyone just loves the sound of it). The exemption
that allows a whole film to be shown in a class is the "face to face"
teaching exemption
It is so tempting to say that the cost is just unreasonable to let them show
it but textbooks are not at INSANE prices so do you
just make copies for students ? Also who gets to judge what is too high a
price for a particular film under a specific circumstance?
I am afraid it is the rights holder or their distributor not the user. I
think I probably charge the least of any company out there for
DVD showings because mentally I just see them as having the same value as my
beloved film prints but I know SWANK does not
see it that way. Also suppose the film your group wanted to show was an
independent film still owned by the makers ? For some reason
I notice that institutions seem to feel that it is OK to spend a lot more
to show them.
I am already frustrated by having to explain copyright law to small
organizations, Jewish Community Centers, local arts groups etc.
I have always been grateful that both public and University library people
understood that they could not just show movies publicly and not pay. If I
seem a bit sensitive it maybe that a company like Kino does not have the
resources to take legal action in most cases ( unless alas there is a lot of
money involved) and other than forwarding the ones I catch to MPAA since
they are usually violating studio titles as well, there is not much I can
do.
One more side pet peeve is that often when I tell a group that it will cost
$100 or $200 to show a film on campus or at local arts venue
they react like I am stealing candy from a baby but I know from experience
that the EXACT same groups often have speakers, concerts
dance programs etc for which they pay THOUSANDS. In the age of Blockbuster &
Netflix public film showings have lost their
"value" in the eyes of many but every bit as expensive to distribute and
have just as much worth artistically

Best I can suggest is to get for Spanish club to deal with some other
companies and find OTHER films that would not cost as much

Jessica

Let's look at the other side of this for a minute. Because we follow the
guidelines very closely at Middlebury, the Hispanic Alliance on our campus
will probably not be screening two Spanish-language movies for their group
this month. The public performance fee was close to a thousand dollars for
the two and the club doesn't have that much in their budget. It doesn't
require too much imagination to see this as somewhat of an impediment to
learning. Sure, they can see the film if it's a part of the Spanish 101
curriculum, but they can't see it as a group unless they are able to shell
out $1,000 for the privilege. Public performance prices for these sorts of
programs are way too high. We expect to pay those prices for College-wide
entertainment-related film series but shouldn't have to strain our budgets
to offer realistic enrichment programs to language groups. We are being fair
to the distributors, but are we being entirely fair to our students? Do we
have a responsibility as educators to push the envelope in favor of more
realistic "fair use"?
Patty
_________________________________
Patricia Hornbeck
Media Resources Development Coordinator
Middlebury College
Library and Information Services/#212
Middlebury, VT 05753

(802)443-2268 phone
(802)443-5698 fax
Email: hornbeck@middlebury.edu

-----Original Message-----
From: Kim Crowley [ mailto:videolib-bounces@library.berkeley.edu]
<mailto:videolib-bounces@library.berkeley.edu]> On Behalf Of Kim Crowley
Sent: Tue, September 20, 2005 6:35 PM
To: videolib@library.berkeley.edu
Subject: RE: [Videolib] another fair use question

Thank you, Jessica. I did go the vidoelib archives when I had time and
found reference to the article that is on the webpage of Library Video
company. http://www.libraryvideo.com/articles/article7.asp
<http://www.libraryvideo.com/articles/article7.asp> I will send this on
to my colleague at the community college.

kc



Kim Crowley, Director
Flathead County Library phone: 406.758.5826
247 First Avenue East fax: 406.758.5868
Kalispell, MT. 59901-4598
kcrowley@co.flathead.mt.us

-----Original Message-----
From: videolib-bounces@library.berkeley.edu on behalf of Jessica Rosner
Sent: Tue 9/20/2005 2:28 PM
To: videolib
Cc:
Subject: Re: [Videolib] another fair use question


The law happens to very clear on this one. She can show the films to a
CLASS
of students ENROLLED in THAT class as part of the class instruction
She can NOT show it to a student "group" or "club" only to students who are
in her specific class.
There is no such thing as an "educational" exemption. Only a VERY specific
"face to face" teaching exemption. FYI this has NOTHING to do with "fair
use" but with the above mentioned "face to face"

I am bit tired but I am sure Gary or someone else can post the link or text
for this in the copyright code

> Hi all,
>
> We have a community college here with a multicultural and global issues
> program. The person in charge of this program teaches classes and also
does
> some community events. She was under the impression (backed up by the
media
> center, which is not the library) that since she is in a teaching
environment
> and these films are to further the education of the students, that she
does
> not have to have any special rights for films like "Crash" and "Maria
Full of
> Grace." These are films that she would like to show her student group,
call
> "Global Friends". I called her when I saw "Crash" advertised in an
email
> newsletter and she has since pulled that film and substituted "Invisible
> Children" for which she has permission. But she is still under the
impression
> that she can show "Crash" at a later date to the student club without
> performance rights (and if they happen to bring their friends, that is
okay).
>
> Can she show these films in the classroom without performance rights?
Can she
> show them to the Global Club and friends without performance rights?
> Thanks,
> kc
>
> Kim Crowley, Director
> Flathead County Library phone: 406.758.5826
> 247 First Avenue East fax: 406.758.5868
> Kalispell, MT. 59901-4598
> kcrowley@co.flathead.mt.us
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Videolib mailing list
> Videolib@library.berkeley.edu
> http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/videolib
<http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/videolib>

Proud Resident of a BLUE STATE

Jessica Rosner
Kino International
333 W 39th St. 503
NY NY 10018
jrosner@kino.com
212-629-6880

_______________________________________________
Videolib mailing list
Videolib@library.berkeley.edu
http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/videolib
<http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/videolib>

Proud Resident of a BLUE STATE

Jessica Rosner
Kino International
333 W 39th St. 503
NY NY 10018
jrosner@kino.com
212-629-6880

------_=_NextPart_001_01C5BEBE.52A5AD34
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
Re: [Videolib] another fair use question

Darn it! She beat me to the punch!
Bryan Griest
Glendale Public Library
-----Original Message-----
From: videolib-bounces@library.berkeley.edu [mailto:videolib-bounces@library.berkeley.edu]On Behalf Of Jessica Rosner
Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2005 7:22 AM
To: videolib
Subject: Re: [Videolib] another fair use question

Patty
I empathize and I can't imagine what titles they were or what company would charge so much but not you can't push the envelope on this one
The law is very clear and as I get very tired of mentioning  this is NOT  "fair use"  ( I think everyone just loves the sound of it). The exemption
that allows a whole film to be shown in a class is the "face to face" teaching exemption
It is so tempting to say that the cost is just unreasonable to let them show it but textbooks are  not at INSANE prices so do you
just make copies for students ? Also who gets to judge what is too high a price for a particular film under a specific circumstance?
I am afraid it is the rights holder or their distributor not the user.  I think I probably charge the least of any company out there for
DVD showings because mentally I just see them as having the same value as my beloved film prints but I know SWANK does not
see it that way. Also suppose the film your group wanted to show was an independent film still owned by the makers ? For some reason
I notice that institutions seem to feel that it is OK to spend a  lot more to show them.
I am already frustrated by having to explain copyright law to small  organizations, Jewish Community Centers, local arts groups etc.
I have always been grateful that both public and University library people understood that they could not just show movies publicly and not pay. If I seem a bit sensitive it maybe that a company like Kino does not have the resources to take legal action in most cases ( unless alas there is a lot of money involved) and other than forwarding the ones I catch to MPAA since they are usually violating studio titles as well, there is not much I can do.
One more side pet peeve is that often when I tell a group that it will cost $100 or $200 to show a film on campus or at local arts venue
they react  like I am stealing candy from a baby but I know from experience that the EXACT same groups often have speakers, concerts
dance programs etc for which they pay THOUSANDS. In the age of Blockbuster & Netflix public film showings have lost their
"value" in the eyes of many but every bit  as expensive to distribute and have just as much worth artistically

Best I can suggest  is to get for Spanish club to deal with some other  companies and find OTHER films that would not cost as much

Jessica


Let's look at the other side of this for a minute. Because we follow the guidelines very closely at Middlebury, the Hispanic Alliance on our campus will probably not be screening two Spanish-language movies for their group this month. The public performance fee was close to a thousand dollars for the two and the club doesn't have that much in their budget. It doesn't require too much imagination to see this as somewhat of an impediment to learning. Sure, they can see the film if it's a part of the Spanish 101 curriculum, but they can't see it as a group unless they are able to shell out $1,000 for the privilege. Public performance prices for these sorts of programs are way too high. We expect to pay those prices for College-wide entertainment-related film series but shouldn't have to strain our budgets to offer realistic enrichment programs to language groups. We are being fair to the distributors, but are we being entirely fair to our students? Do we have a responsibility as educators to push the envelope in favor of more realistic "fair use"?
Patty
_________________________________

Patricia Hornbeck
Media Resources Development Coordinator
Middlebury College
Library and Information Services/#212
Middlebury, VT 05753

(802)443-2268 phone
(802)443-5698 fax
Email: hornbeck@middlebury.edu

-----Original Message-----
From: Kim Crowley  [mailto:videolib-bounces@library.berkeley.edu]On Behalf Of Kim  Crowley
Sent: Tue, September 20, 2005 6:35 PM
To:  videolib@library.berkeley.edu
Subject: RE: [Videolib] another fair  use question


Thank you, Jessica.  I did go the vidoelib archives when I had time  and found reference to the article that is on the webpage of Library Video  company.  http://www.libraryvideo.com/articles/article7.asp   I will send this on to my colleague at the community college.  
 
kc
 
 
 
Kim Crowley, Director
Flathead County Library   phone:  406.758.5826
247 First Avenue East     fax:    406.758.5868
Kalispell, MT. 59901-4598
kcrowley@co.flathead.mt.us
 

-----Original Message-----
From:  videolib-bounces@library.berkeley.edu on behalf of Jessica Rosner  
Sent: Tue 9/20/2005 2:28 PM
To: videolib  
Cc:
Subject: Re: [Videolib] another fair use  question

 

The law happens to very clear on this one. She can show the  films to a CLASS
of students ENROLLED in THAT  class as part of the  class instruction
She can NOT show it to a student "group" or "club" only  to students who are
in her specific class.
There is no such thing as  an "educational" exemption. Only a VERY specific
"face to face" teaching  exemption. FYI this has NOTHING to do with "fair
use" but with the above  mentioned "face to face"

I am bit tired but I am sure Gary or someone  else can post the link or text
for this in the copyright  code


> Hi all,
>
> We have a community  college here with a multicultural and global issues
> program.   The person in charge of this program teaches classes and also does
>  some community events.  She was under the impression (backed up by the  media
> center, which is not the library) that since she is in a  teaching environment
> and these films are to further the education of  the students, that she does
> not have to have any special rights for  films like "Crash" and "Maria Full of
> Grace."  These are films  that she would like to show her student group, call
> "Global  Friends".  I called her when I saw "Crash" advertised in an  email
> newsletter and she has since pulled that film and substituted  "Invisible
> Children" for which she has permission.  But she is  still under the impression
> that she can show "Crash" at a later date  to the student club without
> performance rights (and if they happen  to bring their friends, that is okay).
>
> Can she show  these films in the classroom without performance rights?  Can  she
> show them to the Global Club and friends without performance  rights?
> Thanks,
> kc
>
> Kim Crowley,  Director
> Flathead County Library   phone:  406.758.5826
> 247 First Avenue East      fax:   406.758.5868
> Kalispell, MT. 59901-4598
>  kcrowley@co.flathead.mt.us
>
>
>  _______________________________________________
> Videolib mailing  list
> Videolib@library.berkeley.edu
> http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/videolib



Proud  Resident of a BLUE STATE

Jessica Rosner
Kino International
333  W 39th St. 503
NY NY  10018
jrosner@kino.com
212-629-6880


_______________________________________________
Videolib  mailing list
Videolib@library.berkeley.edu
http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/videolib





Proud Resident of a BLUE STATE
 
Jessica Rosner
Kino International
333 W 39th St. 503
NY NY 10018
jrosner@kino.com
212-629-6880
------_=_NextPart_001_01C5BEBE.52A5AD34--