RE: [Videolib] another fair use question

Brewer, Michael (brewerm@u.library.arizona.edu)
Wed, 21 Sep 2005 08:40:02 -0700

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All,=20

=20

I also agree with Jessica here, but have a slightly different point of
view when it comes to fair use. I think saying fair use can have
nothing to do with it because an entire film is being shown is
deceptive. Fair use does not disallow using an entire work, it only
mentions that the amount of the work being used is one of the 4 factors
that needs to be weighed. I think that arguing fair use in this
instance would not hold up, but largely because when you weigh the 4
factors, only one of four is in the favor of fair use (purpose is, but
not effect, amount or nature). I can imagine situations where one could
weigh the 4 factors and find that using an entire film was justified
under fair use (an easy example, for me anyway, would be showing a rare
"orphan" work to a group in a non-profit "educational" setting, but one
which did not meet the requirements for the face to face exemption. I
think there are others, but this one seems pretty simple for me).=20

=20

mb

=20

Michael Brewer

Slavic Studies, German Studies & Media Arts Librarian

University of Arizona Library A210

1510 E. University

P.O. Box 210055

Tucson, AZ 85721

Voice: 520.307.2771

Fax: 520.621.9733

brewerm@u.library.arizona.edu

-----Original Message-----
From: videolib-bounces@library.berkeley.edu
[mailto:videolib-bounces@library.berkeley.edu] On Behalf Of Jessica
Rosner
Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2005 7:22 AM
To: videolib
Subject: Re: [Videolib] another fair use question

=20

Patty
I empathize and I can't imagine what titles they were or what
company would charge so much but not you can't push the envelope on this
one
The law is very clear and as I get very tired of mentioning
this is NOT "fair use" ( I think everyone just loves the sound of it).
The exemption
that allows a whole film to be shown in a class is the "face to
face" teaching exemption
It is so tempting to say that the cost is just unreasonable to
let them show it but textbooks are not at INSANE prices so do you
just make copies for students ? Also who gets to judge what is
too high a price for a particular film under a specific circumstance?
I am afraid it is the rights holder or their distributor not the
user. I think I probably charge the least of any company out there for
DVD showings because mentally I just see them as having the same
value as my beloved film prints but I know SWANK does not
see it that way. Also suppose the film your group wanted to show
was an independent film still owned by the makers ? For some reason
I notice that institutions seem to feel that it is OK to spend a
lot more to show them.
I am already frustrated by having to explain copyright law to
small organizations, Jewish Community Centers, local arts groups etc.
I have always been grateful that both public and University
library people understood that they could not just show movies publicly
and not pay. If I seem a bit sensitive it maybe that a company like Kino
does not have the resources to take legal action in most cases ( unless
alas there is a lot of money involved) and other than forwarding the
ones I catch to MPAA since they are usually violating studio titles as
well, there is not much I can do.=20
One more side pet peeve is that often when I tell a group that
it will cost $100 or $200 to show a film on campus or at local arts
venue
they react like I am stealing candy from a baby but I know from
experience that the EXACT same groups often have speakers, concerts
dance programs etc for which they pay THOUSANDS. In the age of
Blockbuster & Netflix public film showings have lost their
"value" in the eyes of many but every bit as expensive to
distribute and have just as much worth artistically
=09
Best I can suggest is to get for Spanish club to deal with some
other companies and find OTHER films that would not cost as much
=09
Jessica
=09
=09
Let's look at the other side of this for a minute. Because we
follow the guidelines very closely at Middlebury, the Hispanic Alliance
on our campus will probably not be screening two Spanish-language movies
for their group this month. The public performance fee was close to a
thousand dollars for the two and the club doesn't have that much in
their budget. It doesn't require too much imagination to see this as
somewhat of an impediment to learning. Sure, they can see the film if
it's a part of the Spanish 101 curriculum, but they can't see it as a
group unless they are able to shell out $1,000 for the privilege. Public
performance prices for these sorts of programs are way too high. We
expect to pay those prices for College-wide entertainment-related film
series but shouldn't have to strain our budgets to offer realistic
enrichment programs to language groups. We are being fair to the
distributors, but are we being entirely fair to our students? Do we have
a responsibility as educators to push the envelope in favor of more
realistic "fair use"?=20
Patty=20
_________________________________=20
Patricia Hornbeck=20
Media Resources Development Coordinator=20
Middlebury College=20
Library and Information Services/#212=20
Middlebury, VT 05753=20
=09
(802)443-2268 phone=20
(802)443-5698 fax=20
Email: hornbeck@middlebury.edu=20

=09
-----Original Message-----
From: Kim Crowley
[mailto:videolib-bounces@library.berkeley.edu]
<mailto:videolib-bounces@library.berkeley.edu%5d> On Behalf Of Kim
Crowley
Sent: Tue, September 20, 2005 6:35 PM
To: videolib@library.berkeley.edu
Subject: RE: [Videolib] another fair use question
=09
=09
Thank you, Jessica. I did go the vidoelib archives when I had
time and found reference to the article that is on the webpage of
Library Video company.
http://www.libraryvideo.com/articles/article7.asp I will send this on
to my colleague at the community college. =20
=20
kc
=20
=20
=20
Kim Crowley, Director
Flathead County Library phone: 406.758.5826
247 First Avenue East fax: 406.758.5868
Kalispell, MT. 59901-4598
kcrowley@co.flathead.mt.us
=20

=09
-----Original Message-----=20
From: videolib-bounces@library.berkeley.edu on behalf of
Jessica Rosner =20
Sent: Tue 9/20/2005 2:28 PM=20
To: videolib =20
Cc:=20
Subject: Re: [Videolib] another fair use question
=09
=20
=09
The law happens to very clear on this one. She can show the
films to a CLASS
of students ENROLLED in THAT class as part of the class
instruction
She can NOT show it to a student "group" or "club" only to
students who are
in her specific class.
There is no such thing as an "educational" exemption. Only a
VERY specific
"face to face" teaching exemption. FYI this has NOTHING to do
with "fair
use" but with the above mentioned "face to face"
=09
I am bit tired but I am sure Gary or someone else can post the
link or text
for this in the copyright code
=09
=09
> Hi all,
>=20
> We have a community college here with a multicultural and
global issues
> program. The person in charge of this program teaches
classes and also does
> some community events. She was under the impression (backed
up by the media
> center, which is not the library) that since she is in a
teaching environment
> and these films are to further the education of the students,
that she does
> not have to have any special rights for films like "Crash"
and "Maria Full of
> Grace." These are films that she would like to show her
student group, call
> "Global Friends". I called her when I saw "Crash" advertised
in an email
> newsletter and she has since pulled that film and substituted
"Invisible
> Children" for which she has permission. But she is still
under the impression
> that she can show "Crash" at a later date to the student club
without
> performance rights (and if they happen to bring their
friends, that is okay).
>=20
> Can she show these films in the classroom without performance
rights? Can she
> show them to the Global Club and friends without performance
rights?
> Thanks,
> kc
>=20
> Kim Crowley, Director
> Flathead County Library phone: 406.758.5826
> 247 First Avenue East fax: 406.758.5868
> Kalispell, MT. 59901-4598
> kcrowley@co.flathead.mt.us
>=20
>
> _______________________________________________
> Videolib mailing list
> Videolib@library.berkeley.edu
> http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/videolib
=09
=09
=09
Proud Resident of a BLUE STATE
=09
Jessica Rosner
Kino International
333 W 39th St. 503
NY NY 10018
jrosner@kino.com
212-629-6880
=09
=09
_______________________________________________
Videolib mailing list
Videolib@library.berkeley.edu
http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/videolib

=20

Proud Resident of a BLUE STATE
=20
Jessica Rosner
Kino International
333 W 39th St. 503
NY NY 10018
jrosner@kino.com
212-629-6880

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Re: [Videolib] another fair use question

All,

 

I also agree with Jessica here, but = have a slightly different point of view when it comes to fair use.  I = think saying fair use can have nothing to do with it because an entire film is = being shown is deceptive.  Fair use does not disallow using an entire = work, it only mentions that the amount of the work being used is one of the 4 = factors that needs to be weighed.  I think that arguing fair use in this = instance would not hold up, but largely because when you weigh the 4 factors, = only one of four is in the favor of fair use (purpose is, but not effect, amount = or nature).  I can imagine situations where one could weigh the 4 = factors and find that using an entire film was justified under fair use (an easy = example, for me anyway, would be showing a rare “orphan” work to a = group in a non-profit “educational” setting, but one which did not = meet the requirements for the face to face exemption.  I think there are others, but this = one seems pretty simple for me).

 

mb

 

Michael Brewer

Slavic Studies, German Studies & = Media Arts Librarian

University of Arizona Library = A210

1510 E. University

P.O. Box 210055

Tucson, AZ 85721

Voice: = 520.307.2771

Fax: 520.621.9733

brewerm@u.library.arizona.e= du

-----Original = Message-----
From: = videolib-bounces@library.berkeley.edu [mailto:videolib-bounces@library.berkeley.edu] On Behalf Of Jessica Rosner
Sent: Wednesday, = September 21, 2005 7:22 AM
To: videolib
Subject: Re: [Videolib] = another fair use question

 

Patty
I empathize and I can’t imagine what titles they were or what = company would charge so much but not you can’t push the envelope on this = one
The law is very clear and as I get very tired of mentioning  this = is NOT  “fair use”  ( I think everyone just loves the = sound of it). The exemption
that allows a whole film to be shown in a class is the “face to face” teaching exemption
It is so tempting to say that the cost is just unreasonable to let them = show it but textbooks are  not at INSANE prices so do you
just make copies for students ? Also who gets to judge what is too high = a price for a particular film under a specific circumstance?
I am afraid it is the rights holder or their distributor not the user. =  I think I probably charge the least of any company out there for
DVD showings because mentally I just see them as having the same value = as my beloved film prints but I know SWANK does not
see it that way. Also suppose the film your group wanted to show was an independent film still owned by the makers ? For some reason
I notice that institutions seem to feel that it is OK to spend a =  lot more to show them.
I am already frustrated by having to explain copyright law to small  organizations, Jewish Community Centers, local arts groups = etc.
I have always been grateful that both public and University library = people understood that they could not just show movies publicly and not pay. If = I seem a bit sensitive it maybe that a company like Kino does not have the = resources to take legal action in most cases ( unless alas there is a lot of money involved) and other than forwarding the ones I catch to MPAA since they = are usually violating studio titles as well, there is not much I can do. =
One more side pet peeve is that often when I tell a group that it will = cost $100 or $200 to show a film on campus or at local arts venue
they react  like I am stealing candy from a baby but I know from experience that the EXACT same groups often have speakers, concerts
dance programs etc for which they pay THOUSANDS. In the age of = Blockbuster & Netflix public film showings have lost their
“value” in the eyes of many but every bit  as expensive = to distribute and have just as much worth artistically

Best I can suggest  is to get for Spanish club to deal with some = other  companies and find OTHER films that would not cost as much

Jessica


Let's look at the other side of this for a minute. Because we follow the guidelines very closely at Middlebury, the Hispanic Alliance on our = campus will probably not be screening two Spanish-language movies for their group = this month. The public performance fee was close to a thousand dollars for = the two and the club doesn't have that much in their budget. It doesn't require = too much imagination to see this as somewhat of an impediment to learning. = Sure, they can see the film if it's a part of the Spanish 101 curriculum, but = they can't see it as a group unless they are able to shell out $1,000 for the privilege. Public performance prices for these sorts of programs are way = too high. We expect to pay those prices for College-wide entertainment-related = film series but shouldn't have to strain our budgets to offer realistic = enrichment programs to language groups. We are being fair to the distributors, but = are we being entirely fair to our students? Do we have a responsibility as = educators to push the envelope in favor of more realistic "fair use"? =
Patty
_________________________________
Patricia Hornbeck
Media = Resources Development Coordinator
Middlebury College
Library = and Information Services/#212
Middlebury, VT 05753

(802)443-2268 phone
(802)443-5698 fax
Email: hornbeck@middlebury.edu


-----Original Message-----
From: Kim Crowley =  [mailto:videolib-= bounces@library.berkeley.edu]On Behalf Of Kim  Crowley
Sent: Tue, September 20, = 2005 6:35 PM
To:  videolib@library.berkeley.edu
Subject: RE: [Videolib] = another fair  use question


Thank you, Jessica.  I did go the vidoelib archives when I had time =  and found reference to the article that is on the webpage of Library Video  company.  http://www.lib= raryvideo.com/articles/article7.asp   I will send this on to my colleague at the community = college.  
 
kc
 
 
 
Kim Crowley, Director
Flathead County Library   phone:  406.758.5826
247 First Avenue East     fax:    406.758.5868
Kalispell, MT. 59901-4598
kcrowley@co.flathead.mt.us
 


-----Original Message-----
From:  videolib-bounces@library.berkeley.edu on behalf of Jessica Rosner =  
Sent: Tue 9/20/2005 2:28 = PM
To: videolib  
Cc:
Subject: Re: [Videolib] = another fair use  question

 

The law happens to very clear on this one. She can show the  films = to a CLASS
of students ENROLLED in THAT  class as part of the  class = instruction
She can NOT show it to a student "group" or "club" = only  to students who are
in her specific class.
There is no such thing as  an "educational" exemption. = Only a VERY specific
"face to face" teaching  exemption. FYI this has NOTHING = to do with "fair
use" but with the above  mentioned "face to = face"

I am bit tired but I am sure Gary or someone  else can post the = link or text
for this in the copyright  code


> Hi all,
>
> We have a community  college here with a multicultural and = global issues
> program.   The person in charge of this program teaches = classes and also does
>  some community events.  She was under the impression = (backed up by the  media
> center, which is not the library) that since she is in a =  teaching environment
> and these films are to further the education of  the students, = that she does
> not have to have any special rights for  films like = "Crash" and "Maria Full of
> Grace."  These are films  that she would like to = show her student group, call
> "Global  Friends".  I called her when I saw "Crash" advertised in an  email
> newsletter and she has since pulled that film and substituted  "Invisible
> Children" for which she has permission.  But she is =  still under the impression
> that she can show "Crash" at a later date  to the = student club without
> performance rights (and if they happen  to bring their = friends, that is okay).
>
> Can she show  these films in the classroom without performance rights?  Can  she
> show them to the Global Club and friends without performance =  rights?
> Thanks,
> kc
>
> Kim Crowley,  Director
> Flathead County Library   phone:  406.758.5826
> 247 First Avenue East      fax:   406.758.5868
> Kalispell, MT. 59901-4598
>  kcrowley@co.flathead.mt.us
>
>
>  _______________________________________________
> Videolib mailing  list
> Videolib@library.berkeley.edu
> http://www= .lib.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/videolib



Proud  Resident of a BLUE STATE

Jessica Rosner
Kino International
333  W 39th St. 503
NY NY  10018
jrosner@kino.com
212-629-6880


_______________________________________________
Videolib  mailing list
Videolib@library.berkeley.edu
http://www= .lib.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/videolib

 





Proud Resident of a BLUE STATE
 
Jessica Rosner
Kino International
333 W 39th St. 503
NY NY 10018
jrosner@kino.com
212-629-6880

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