Re: [Videolib] another fair use question

Jessica Rosner (jrosner@kino.com)
Wed, 21 Sep 2005 10:21:59 -0400

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> Patty
> I empathize and I can=B9t imagine what titles they were or what company wou=
ld
> charge so much but not you can=B9t push the envelope on this one
> The law is very clear and as I get very tired of mentioning this is NOT
> =B3fair use=B2 ( I think everyone just loves the sound of it). The exemption
> that allows a whole film to be shown in a class is the =B3face to face=B2 tea=
ching
> exemption
> It is so tempting to say that the cost is just unreasonable to let them s=
how
> it but textbooks are not at INSANE prices so do you
> just make copies for students ? Also who gets to judge what is too high a
> price for a particular film under a specific circumstance?
> I am afraid it is the rights holder or their distributor not the user. I
> think I probably charge the least of any company out there for
> DVD showings because mentally I just see them as having the same value as=
my
> beloved film prints but I know SWANK does not
> see it that way. Also suppose the film your group wanted to show was an
> independent film still owned by the makers ? For some reason
> I notice that institutions seem to feel that it is OK to spend a lot mor=
e to
> show them.
> I am already frustrated by having to explain copyright law to small
> organizations, Jewish Community Centers, local arts groups etc.
> I have always been grateful that both public and University library peopl=
e
> understood that they could not just show movies publicly and not pay. If =
I
> seem a bit sensitive it maybe that a company like Kino does not have the
> resources to take legal action in most cases ( unless alas there is a lot=
of
> money involved) and other than forwarding the ones I catch to MPAA since =
they
> are usually violating studio titles as well, there is not much I can do.
> One more side pet peeve is that often when I tell a group that it will co=
st
> $100 or $200 to show a film on campus or at local arts venue
> they react like I am stealing candy from a baby but I know from experien=
ce
> that the EXACT same groups often have speakers, concerts
> dance programs etc for which they pay THOUSANDS. In the age of Blockbuste=
r &
> Netflix public film showings have lost their
> =B3value=B2 in the eyes of many but every bit as expensive to distribute and=
have
> just as much worth artistically
>=20
> Best I can suggest is to get for Spanish club to deal with some other
> companies and find OTHER films that would not cost as much
>=20
> Jessica
>=20
>=20
> Let's look at the other side of this for a minute. Because we follow the
> guidelines very closely at Middlebury, the Hispanic Alliance on our campu=
s
> will probably not be screening two Spanish-language movies for their grou=
p
> this month. The public performance fee was close to a thousand dollars fo=
r the
> two and the club doesn't have that much in their budget. It doesn't requi=
re
> too much imagination to see this as somewhat of an impediment to learning=
.
> Sure, they can see the film if it's a part of the Spanish 101 curriculum,=
but
> they can't see it as a group unless they are able to shell out $1,000 for=
the
> privilege. Public performance prices for these sorts of programs are way =
too
> high. We expect to pay those prices for College-wide entertainment-relate=
d
> film series but shouldn't have to strain our budgets to offer realistic
> enrichment programs to language groups. We are being fair to the distribu=
tors,
> but are we being entirely fair to our students? Do we have a responsibili=
ty as
> educators to push the envelope in favor of more realistic "fair use"?
> Patty=20
> _________________________________
> Patricia Hornbeck
> Media Resources Development Coordinator
> Middlebury College
> Library and Information Services/#212
> Middlebury, VT 05753
>=20
> (802)443-2268 phone
> (802)443-5698 fax
> Email: hornbeck@middlebury.edu
>> =20
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Kim Crowley [mailto:videolib-bounces@library.berkeley.edu]On Beha=
lf Of
>> Kim Crowley
>> Sent: Tue, September 20, 2005 6:35 PM
>> To: videolib@library.berkeley.edu
>> Subject: RE: [Videolib] another fair use question
>>=20
>> =20
>> Thank you, Jessica. I did go the vidoelib archives when I had time and
>> found reference to the article that is on the webpage of Library Video
>> company. http://www.libraryvideo.com/articles/article7.asp I will sen=
d
>> this on to my colleague at the community college.
>> =20
>> kc
>> =20
>> =20
>> =20
>> Kim Crowley, Director
>> Flathead County Library phone: 406.758.5826
>> 247 First Avenue East fax: 406.758.5868
>> Kalispell, MT. 59901-4598
>> kcrowley@co.flathead.mt.us
>> =20
>>> =20
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: videolib-bounces@library.berkeley.edu on behalf of Jessica Rosne=
r
>>> Sent: Tue 9/20/2005 2:28 PM
>>> To: videolib =20
>>> Cc:=20
>>> Subject: Re: [Videolib] another fair use question
>>>=20
>>> =20
>>>=20
>>> The law happens to very clear on this one. She can show the films to a
>>> CLASS
>>> of students ENROLLED in THAT class as part of the class instruction
>>> She can NOT show it to a student "group" or "club" only to students wh=
o are
>>> in her specific class.
>>> There is no such thing as an "educational" exemption. Only a VERY spec=
ific
>>> "face to face" teaching exemption. FYI this has NOTHING to do with "fa=
ir
>>> use" but with the above mentioned "face to face"
>>>=20
>>> I am bit tired but I am sure Gary or someone else can post the link or=
text
>>> for this in the copyright code
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>> > Hi all,
>>>> >=20
>>>> > We have a community college here with a multicultural and global is=
sues
>>>> > program. The person in charge of this program teaches classes and =
also
>>>> does
>>>> > some community events. She was under the impression (backed up by =
the
>>>> media
>>>> > center, which is not the library) that since she is in a teaching
>>>> environment
>>>> > and these films are to further the education of the students, that =
she
>>>> does
>>>> > not have to have any special rights for films like "Crash" and "Mar=
ia
>>>> Full of
>>>> > Grace." These are films that she would like to show her student gr=
oup,
>>>> call
>>>> > "Global Friends". I called her when I saw "Crash" advertised in an
>>>> email
>>>> > newsletter and she has since pulled that film and substituted "Invi=
sible
>>>> > Children" for which she has permission. But she is still under the
>>>> impression
>>>> > that she can show "Crash" at a later date to the student club witho=
ut
>>>> > performance rights (and if they happen to bring their friends, that=
is
>>>> okay).
>>>> >=20
>>>> > Can she show these films in the classroom without performance right=
s?
>>>> Can she
>>>> > show them to the Global Club and friends without performance rights=
?
>>>> > Thanks,
>>>> > kc
>>>> >=20
>>>> > Kim Crowley, Director
>>>> > Flathead County Library phone: 406.758.5826
>>>> > 247 First Avenue East fax: 406.758.5868
>>>> > Kalispell, MT. 59901-4598
>>>> > kcrowley@co.flathead.mt.us
>>>> >=20
>>>> >
>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>> > Videolib mailing list
>>>> > Videolib@library.berkeley.edu
>>>> > http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/videolib
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Proud Resident of a BLUE STATE
>>>=20
>>> Jessica Rosner
>>> Kino International
>>> 333 W 39th St. 503
>>> NY NY 10018
>>> jrosner@kino.com
>>> 212-629-6880
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Videolib mailing list
>>> Videolib@library.berkeley.edu
>>> http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/videolib
>=20

Proud Resident of a BLUE STATE
=20
Jessica Rosner
Kino International
333 W 39th St. 503
NY NY 10018
jrosner@kino.com
212-629-6880

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Re: [Videolib] another fair use question

Patty
I empathize and I can’t imagine what titles they were or what company= would charge so much but not you can’t push the envelope on this one<= BR> The law is very clear and as I get very tired of mentioning  this is N= OT  “fair use”  ( I think everyone just loves the soun= d of it). The exemption
that allows a whole film to be shown in a class is the “face to face&= #8221; teaching exemption
It is so tempting to say that the cost is just unreasonable to let them sho= w it but textbooks are  not at INSANE prices so do you
just make copies for students ? Also who gets to judge what is too high a p= rice for a particular film under a specific circumstance?
I am afraid it is the rights holder or their distributor not the user. &nbs= p;I think I probably charge the least of any company out there for
DVD showings because mentally I just see them as having the same value as m= y beloved film prints but I know SWANK does not
see it that way. Also suppose the film your group wanted to show was an ind= ependent film still owned by the makers ? For some reason
I notice that institutions seem to feel that it is OK to spend a  lot = more to show them.
I am already frustrated by having to explain copyright law to small  o= rganizations, Jewish Community Centers, local arts groups etc.
I have always been grateful that both public and University library people = understood that they could not just show movies publicly and not pay. If I s= eem a bit sensitive it maybe that a company like Kino does not have the reso= urces to take legal action in most cases ( unless alas there is a lot of mon= ey involved) and other than forwarding the ones I catch to MPAA since they a= re usually violating studio titles as well, there is not much I can do.
One more side pet peeve is that often when I tell a group that it will cost= $100 or $200 to show a film on campus or at local arts venue
they react  like I am stealing candy from a baby but I know from exper= ience that the EXACT same groups often have speakers, concerts
dance programs etc for which they pay THOUSANDS. In the age of Blockbuster = & Netflix public film showings have lost their
“value” in the eyes of many but every bit  as expensive to= distribute and have just as much worth artistically

Best I can suggest  is to get for Spanish club to deal with some other=  companies and find OTHER films that would not cost as much

Jessica


Let's look at the other side of this for a minute. Because we follow the gu= idelines very closely at Middlebury, the Hispanic Alliance on our campus wil= l probably not be screening two Spanish-language movies for their group this= month. The public performance fee was close to a thousand dollars for the t= wo and the club doesn't have that much in their budget. It doesn't require t= oo much imagination to see this as somewhat of an impediment to learning. Su= re, they can see the film if it's a part of the Spanish 101 curriculum, but = they can't see it as a group unless they are able to shell out $1,000 for th= e privilege. Public performance prices for these sorts of programs are way t= oo high. We expect to pay those prices for College-wide entertainment-relate= d film series but shouldn't have to strain our budgets to offer realistic en= richment programs to language groups. We are being fair to the distributors,= but are we being entirely fair to our students? Do we have a responsibility= as educators to push the envelope in favor of more realistic "fair use= "?
Patty
_________________________________

Patricia Hornbe= ck
Media Resources= Development Coordinator
Middlebury Coll= ege
Library and Inf= ormation Services/#212
Middlebury, VT = 05753

(802)443-2268 p= hone
(802)443-5698 f= ax
Email: hornbeck= @middlebury.edu

-----Origi= nal Message-----
From: Kim Crowley  [mailto:videolib-bounces@library.berkeley.edu]On Behalf O= f Kim  Crowley
Sent: Tue, September 20, 2005 6:35 PM
To:  videolib@library.berkeley.edu
Subject: RE: [Videolib] another fair  use question


Thank you, Jessica.  I did go the vidoelib archives when I had time &n= bsp;and found reference to the article that is on the webpage of Library Vid= eo  company.  http://www.libraryvideo.com/articles/article7.asp   I = will send this on to my colleague at the community college.  
 
kc
 
 
 
Kim Crowley, Director
Flathead County Library   phone:  406.758.5826
247 First Avenue East     fax:    406.75= 8.5868
Kalispell, MT. 59901-4598
kcrowley@co.flathead.mt.us
 

-----Original Message-----
From:  videolib-bounces@library.berkeley.edu on behalf of Jessi= ca Rosner  
Sent: Tue 9/20/2005 2:28 PM
To: videolib  
Cc:
Subject: Re: [Videolib] another fair use  question

 

The law happens to very clear on this one. She can show the  films to = a CLASS
of students ENROLLED in THAT  class as part of the  class instruc= tion
She can NOT show it to a student "group" or "club" only=  to students who are
in her specific class.
There is no such thing as  an "educational" exemption. Only = a VERY specific
"face to face" teaching  exemption. FYI this has NOTHING to = do with "fair
use" but with the above  mentioned "face to face"

I am bit tired but I am sure Gary or someone  else can post the link o= r text
for this in the copyright  code


> Hi all,
>
> We have a community  college here with a multicultural and global= issues
> program.   The person in charge of this program teaches clas= ses and also does
>  some community events.  She was under the impression (backe= d up by the  media
> center, which is not the library) that since she is in a  teachin= g environment
> and these films are to further the education of  the students, th= at she does
> not have to have any special rights for  films like "Crash&q= uot; and "Maria Full of
> Grace."  These are films  that she would like to show h= er student group, call
> "Global  Friends".  I called her when I saw "= Crash" advertised in an  email
> newsletter and she has since pulled that film and substituted  &q= uot;Invisible
> Children" for which she has permission.  But she is  st= ill under the impression
> that she can show "Crash" at a later date  to the stude= nt club without
> performance rights (and if they happen  to bring their friends, t= hat is okay).
>
> Can she show  these films in the classroom without performance ri= ghts?  Can  she
> show them to the Global Club and friends without performance  rig= hts?
> Thanks,
> kc
>
> Kim Crowley,  Director
> Flathead County Library   phone:  406.758.5826
> 247 First Avenue East      fax:   4= 06.758.5868
> Kalispell, MT. 59901-4598
>  kcrowley@co.flathead.mt.us
>
>
>  _______________________________________________
> Videolib mailing  list
> Videolib@library.berkeley.edu
> http:/= /www.lib.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/videolib



Proud  Resident of a BLUE STATE

Jessica Rosner
Kino International
333  W 39th St. 503
NY NY  10018
jrosner@kino.com
212-629-6880


_______________________________________________
Videolib  mailing list
Videolib@library.berkeley.edu
http://www.= lib.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/videolib





Proud Resident of a BLUE STATE
 
Jessica Rosner
Kino International
333 W 39th St. 503
NY NY 10018
jrosner@kino.com
212-629-6880

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