Re: [Videolib] Archival copy of DVD

Randy Pitman (vidlib@videolibrarian.com)
Fri, 19 Sep 2003 14:34:24 -0700

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Hi Scott,

I think "archival copies," if legally impractical, might yet be =
timesaving in the long run. Only a few years ago, you could go eat lunch =
while waiting for a CD to burn at 4X; today I can burn a CD at 52X =
faster than you can Skip Doctor a scratchy disc (and I could probably do =
100 in the composite time required to order a replacement, check it in, =
process it, get it into circulation, and pay the invoice).=20

Ultimately, I think what we are heading towards is licensing (which may =
be more economical all ways round), with the real question being how =
many and what kind of middlepersons will stand between the producer and =
the consumer (one of the library's biggest pr challenges of the future =
will be to assume a premier role as a non-commercial conduit). =
Ironically, the e-book that libraries feared has never really taken =
hold, but recent studies suggest that downloadable music and movies will =
comprise a serious slice of the music conglomerates and film studios' =
revenue pie within the next five years.

Best,

Randy

Randy Pitman
Publisher/Editor
Video Librarian
8705 Honeycomb Ct. NW
Seabeck, WA 98380
Tel: (800) 692-2270; Fax: (360) 830-9346
Email: vidlib@videolibrarian.com
Web: www.videolibrarian.com
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Scott Lehman=20
To: videolib@library.berkeley.edu=20
Sent: Friday, September 19, 2003 1:49 PM
Subject: RE: [Videolib] Archival copy of DVD

Just for fun, I'll play the devil's advocate here... why don't =
librarians (and the ALA) have these same thoughts about the Patriot Act, =
Homeland Security, rulings on Internet Filtering... ?

It seems that librarians (and again, the ALA) like to pick and choose =
which laws they deem to be "wrong." I won't get into where I stand on =
these issues, I just thought it was worth noting, considering the =
Ashcroft - NYT article that was posted earlier. I've seen plenty of =
librarians scampering to adjust their circulation software as to not =
have any patron or item histories in the computer, just to "circumvent" =
these new laws that "we" don't agree with.

I think I can already predict what most of the responses will be. =
Remember, I'm just being the devil's advocate here.=20

Back into "realism" mode... Even if we could make "archival copies," =
who would have the time to do it? Might as well just replace the broken =
Disney DVD or that scratched-up Snoop Dogg CD for the sixth time. Or get =
a disc scratch-repair machine -- that has saved us a bundle in =
replacement costs.

Scott Lehman
Evansville Vanderburgh Public Library

At 12:56 PM 9/19/2003 -0700, you wrote:

I'm not a lawyer, Jed, thank god...but I have been in the business =
of media librarianship for over 20 years and I have worked closely with =
lawyers on both sides of the fair use fence for easily that long. I =
appreciate your "information wants to be free stance", and as an =
educator myself, I push whenever possible on the side of fair use.
There is NO debate here, however. Making derivatives of copyrighted =
works is the exclusive right of the copyright holder under Title =
117....period. While copying of physically at-risk works which are no =
longer available on the commercial market may be permissible (or works =
in obsolete media that are no longer playable), copying an entire DVD =
would in no way be allowable under current law.

yeah...it'd be cool if the american library assn went to the =
battlements in favor of broader access (Librarians did participate in =
CONFU and in the formation of the Fair Use Guidelines for =
Multimedia...battles which we lost, in my view). It's unlike that ALA =
or other professional groups will be frying this particular fish any =
time soon...

There are many subscribers to this list who are new to the field of =
media librarian, or who are attempting to learn the ropes. I think =
you're confusing already complex issues with your idealism. The fact =
is, it's professionally incumbent on librarians (and everyone else, for =
that matter) to play within the strictures of the law (not liking them =
doesn't mean you can ignore them or interpret them to suit your own =
purposes)... Laws that are as fuzzy as copyright are extremely =
difficult to negotiate, and because most of us work in public =
institutions and in the public eye, I think it's always best to play it =
slow and easy... The groups you cite below are advocacy groups that are =
interesting, but are unlikely to prove too much use to any of us in the =
trenches if called into court on an infringement suit.

Gary

At 02:47 PM 9/19/2003 -0400, you wrote:

Gary,=20
I really don't want to start an old debate up again but are you a =
lawyer? Is it that clear? I don't think so. Check out =
http://www.eff.org and http://www.digitalconsumer.org and =
http://www.321studios.com. They don't agree with your position.
=20
I simply ask if you are right, why don't libraries lobby to change =
the law.
Jed Horovitz=20
-----Original Message-----=20
From: videolib-bounces@library.berkeley.edu =
[mailto:videolib-bounces@library.berkeley.edu]On Behalf Of Gary Handman=20
Sent: Friday, September 19, 2003 2:22 PM=20
To: videolib@library.berkeley.edu=20
Subject: Re: [Videolib] Archival copy of DVD

Absolutely categorically indubitably and without question a =
patent infringement of copyright. =20
Do not do it!

Gary

At 01:36 PM 9/19/2003 -0400, you wrote:
A trustee asked if a public library could make copies of DVDs =
to circulate.=20
The original copy would not circulate, but be kept as an =
archival copy if=20
slapdash use causes damage to the circulating copy. This =
question was=20
prompted by concern about the short life expectancy of DVDs =
circulating to=20
the masses. Does anyone do this? Is it a copyright =
violation? My initial=20
response was it is a copyright violation, but I know back in =
the LP days,=20
libraries made tape copies to circulate. Thanks for any =
advice.=20
Ellen J. Reynolds ereynolds@pls-net.org=20
Collection Management Librarian=20
Pioneer Library System www.pls-net.org=20
4595 Rt. 21 N. 585-394-8260 (V)=20
Canandaigua, NY 14424 585-394-1935 (FAX)

_______________________________________________=20
Videolib mailing list=20
Videolib@library.berkeley.edu=20
http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/videolib
Gary Handman=20
Director=20
Media Resources Center=20
Moffitt Library=20
UC Berkeley=20
ghandman@library.berkeley.edu=20
http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/MRC

"In societies where modern conditions of production prevail,=20
all of life presents itself as an immense =
accumulation of spectacles."=20
--Guy Debord=20

Gary Handman
Director
Media Resources Center
Moffitt Library
UC Berkeley
ghandman@library.berkeley.edu
http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/MRC

"In societies where modern conditions of production prevail,
all of life presents itself as an immense accumulation of =
spectacles."
--Guy Debord=20

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Hi Scott,
 
I think "archival copies," if legally = impractical,=20 might yet be timesaving in the long run. Only a few years ago, you = could go=20 eat lunch while waiting for a CD to burn at 4X; today I can burn a CD at = 52X=20 faster than you can Skip Doctor a scratchy disc (and I could probably do = 100 in=20 the composite time required to order a replacement, check it in, process = it, get it into circulation, and pay the invoice). =
 
Ultimately, I think what we are heading = towards is licensing (which may be more economical all ways round), = with=20 the real question being how many and what kind of middlepersons will = stand=20 between the producer and the consumer (one of the library's biggest pr=20 challenges of the future will be to assume a premier role as=20 a non-commercial conduit). Ironically, the e-book that libraries=20 feared has never really taken hold, but recent studies suggest that = downloadable music and movies will comprise a serious slice of the music = conglomerates and film studios' revenue pie within the next five=20 years.
 
Best,
 
Randy
 
Randy Pitman
Publisher/Editor
Video Librarian
8705 = Honeycomb Ct.=20 NW
Seabeck, WA 98380
Tel: (800) 692-2270; Fax: (360) = 830-9346
Email: vidlib@videolibrarian.comWeb: www.videolibrarian.com
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Scott = Lehman
To: videolib@library.berkeley.e= du=20
Sent: Friday, September 19, = 2003 1:49=20 PM
Subject: RE: [Videolib] = Archival copy of=20 DVD

Just for fun, I'll play the devil's advocate here... = why don't=20 librarians (and the ALA) have these same thoughts about the Patriot = Act,=20 Homeland Security, rulings on Internet Filtering... ?

It seems = that=20 librarians (and again, the ALA) like to pick and choose which laws = they deem=20 to be "wrong." I won't get into where I stand on these issues, I just = thought=20 it was worth noting, considering the Ashcroft - NYT article that was = posted=20 earlier. I've seen plenty of librarians scampering to adjust their = circulation=20 software as to not have any patron or item histories in the computer, = just to=20 "circumvent" these new laws that "we" don't agree with.

I think = I can=20 already predict what most of the responses will be. Remember, I'm just = being=20 the devil's advocate here.

Back into "realism" mode... Even if = we=20 could make "archival copies," who would have the time to do it? Might = as well=20 just replace the broken Disney DVD or that scratched-up Snoop Dogg CD = for the=20 sixth time. Or get a disc scratch-repair machine -- that has saved us = a bundle=20 in replacement costs.

Scott Lehman
Evansville Vanderburgh = Public=20 Library

At 12:56 PM 9/19/2003 -0700, you wrote:
I'm not a lawyer, Jed, = thank=20 god...but I have been in the business of media librarianship for = over =20 20 years and I have worked closely with lawyers on both sides of the = fair=20 use fence for easily that long.  I appreciate your "information = wants=20 to be free stance", and as an educator myself, I push whenever = possible on=20 the side of fair use.
There is NO debate here, however.  = Making=20 derivatives of copyrighted works is the exclusive right of the = copyright=20 holder under Title 117....period.   While copying of = physically=20 at-risk works which are no longer available on the commercial market = may be=20 permissible (or works in obsolete media that are no longer = playable),=20 copying an entire DVD would in no way be allowable under current=20 law.

yeah...it'd be cool if the american library assn went to = the=20 battlements in favor of broader access (Librarians did participate = in CONFU=20 and in the formation of the Fair Use Guidelines for = Multimedia...battles=20 which we lost, in my view).  It's unlike that ALA or other = professional=20 groups will be frying this particular fish any time = soon...

There are=20 many subscribers to this list who are new to the field of media = librarian,=20 or who are attempting to learn the ropes.  I think you're = confusing=20 already complex issues with your idealism.  The fact is, it's=20 professionally incumbent on librarians (and everyone else, for that = matter)=20 to play within the strictures of the law (not liking them doesn't = mean you=20 can ignore them or interpret them to suit your own = purposes)...  Laws=20 that are as fuzzy as copyright are extremely difficult to negotiate, = and=20 because most of us work in public institutions and in the public = eye, =20 I think it's always best to play it slow and easy...  The = groups you=20 cite below are advocacy groups that are interesting, but are = unlikely to=20 prove too much use to any of us in the trenches if called into court = on an=20 infringement suit.

Gary

At 02:47 PM 9/19/2003 -0400, = you=20 wrote:
Gary,
I really=20 don't want to start an old debate up again but are you a = lawyer?  Is=20 it that clear?  I don't think so.  Check out http://www.eff.org and http://www.digitalconsumer.org=20 and http://www.321studios.com.  = They=20 don't agree with your position.
 
I simply ask if you are right, why don't = libraries=20 lobby to change the law.
Jed Horovitz=20
-----Original Message-----=20
From: videolib-bounces@library.berkeley.edu [mailto:videolib-bounces@library.berkeley.edu]On=20 Behalf Of Gary Handman=20
Sent: Friday, September 19, 2003 2:22 PM=20
To: videolib@library.berkeley.edu=20
Subject: Re: [Videolib] Archival copy of DVD

Absolutely categorically indubitably = and without question a patent infringement of = copyright. =20
Do not do it!

Gary





At 01:36 PM 9/19/2003 -0400, you wrote:
A trustee asked if a public library could make copies of = DVDs to=20 circulate.=20
The original copy would not circulate, but be kept as an = archival=20 copy if=20
slapdash use causes damage to the circulating copy.  = This=20 question was=20
prompted by concern about the short life expectancy of = DVDs=20 circulating to=20
the masses.  Does anyone do this?  Is it a = copyright=20 violation?  My initial=20
response was it is a copyright violation, but I know back = in the=20 LP days,=20
libraries made tape copies to circulate.  Thanks for = any=20 advice.=20
Ellen J.=20 = Reynolds           = ;       =20 ereynolds@pls-net.org=20
Collection Management Librarian=20
Pioneer Library=20 System          = www.pls-net.org=20
4595 Rt. 21=20 = N.            = ;       =20 585-394-8260 (V)=20
Canandaigua, NY = 14424       =20 585-394-1935 (FAX)





_______________________________________________=20
Videolib mailing list=20
Videolib@library.berkeley.edu=20
http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/videolib<= /A>
Gary Handman=20
Director=20
Media Resources Center=20
Moffitt Library=20
UC Berkeley=20
ghandman@library.berkeley.edu=20
http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/MRC

"In societies where modern conditions of production prevail, =
           = all of=20 life presents itself as an immense accumulation of spectacles."=20 =
           &nb= sp;  =20 --Guy Debord

Gary = Handman
Director
Media=20 Resources Center
Moffitt Library
UC=20 Berkeley
ghandman@library.berkeley.edu
http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/MRC

"In = societies=20 where modern conditions of production=20 = prevail,
           = all=20 of life presents itself as an immense accumulation of=20 = spectacles."
         &nb= sp;    =20 --Guy Debord

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