Re: [Videolib] Internet 2

Mark W. Kopp (iu8film@iu08.org)
Fri, 01 Aug 2003 08:51:50 -0400

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...Not to mention all the time your or I would have to spend, justifying=20
the expense to our supervisors/administration...without regard to whether=20
or not it was effective.

Instead of dropping T1 lines, maybe they should look at dropping the=20
expense of cucumbers and condoms for those oh-so-popular initiatives...or=20
maybe...maybe I should stop there. I would be applying logic to a situation=
=20
that...ok...maybe I should stop there, too. I'm not all that popular in=20
some circles, as it is.

Keep dreaming...

Mark
********************************************
At 03:49 PM 7/31/03 -0400, you wrote:

>Mark, you gotta work on that stutter. Point understood. Last time I=20
>looked they wanted $20,000 too, so the cost of entry hasn't come down.=20
>When I first saw the Release posted a couple of years back I couldn't=20
>believe they were serious. I still can't believe it. A k12 district or=20
>IU has to have an innovative digital product or system they are willing to=
=20
>share with the group AND has to put $20,000 into the pot.! You and I=20
>have to stop all this pipe dreaming, . . . high-speed-=20
>fiber-optic-pipe-dreaming, yea, that's the ticket, big fiberpipedreaming .=
=20
>. . but lookit. We're back to taking about speed, last mile costs, IP2=
=20
>formats . . . what will be the nature of the content in the pipe? who=20
>will produce it? will anybody be willing to pay for it if they produce=20
>it? . . . . . geez that's a lot of questions for someone from new=20
>jersey. OK, back to reality. Most of our schools ran out of photocopy=20
>paper in April and a couple want to drop the T-1 lines back to DSL speed=20
>to save money . . . go figure.
>Cheers - MLR
>"The difficulty of getting anything started increases with the
>square of the number of people involved." Corollary of the Third, Jim=20
>MacGregor
>
>Mark W. Kopp wrote:
>
>>Mark, Mark, Mark,!!!
>>
>>My point was the speed, not the format. I know, as well as you, that DVD=
=20
>>MPEG2 is not the format for the Internet. I merely offered the=20
>>comparison, to give those interested, some benchmark of how much info=20
>>could be moved in a VERY small amount of time.
>>
>>My opinion is that the standard format of Video delivery has not been=20
>>developed yet, and will not be developed until the next level of the=20
>>Internet (whether it is I2, or a cross-breed of current and new=20
>>pipelines) is FIRMLY established. The last I heard, joining the Abilene=20
>>Network costs over $20,000 per year! ...and that doesn't include your=20
>>"last Mile" costs!!!
>>
>>At this point, I think our dreams are well ahead of technology, or at=20
>>least ahead of any level of funding that could make it all happen the way=
=20
>>we like.
>>
>>Mark K.
>>************************************************
>>At 04:44 PM 7/30/03 -0400, you wrote:
>>
>>>I've been lurking I2 sites for about 4 years and agree that some=20
>>>coordinated effort was needed to upgrade/replace the information goat=20
>>>path that now passes for the Internet. If only to handle the rapid=20
>>>growth of bandwidth intensive spam from korea.
>>>
>>>What I can't get all warm and fuzzy about is the concept of streaming a=
=20
>>>DVD Video over I2 or over Ione for that matter. First of all, why not=20
>>>stream from an MPEG 2 FILE rather than from a DVD Video where mechanical=
=20
>>>speed limits the transfer rate and adds a labor intensive element?=20
>>>Second, most monitors can't fully resolve the upper quality of MPEG 2,=20
>>>so why take up bandwidth moving image data that is beyond the capacity=20
>>>of the viewing side to use? Third, streaming a DVD, so far, still can't=
=20
>>>use the interactive options found in most Feature Film discs. A capacity=
=20
>>>that has little relevance to the k-12 classroom. The end result is=20
>>>still a linear video.
>>>
>>>Needing a bigger pipeline to download data or VIDEO FILES was just as=20
>>>inevitable as the need for multilane roads. But the amount of bandwidth=
=20
>>>being consumed by redundant video streaming instead of a single download=
=20
>>>is an unnecessary load on the net and the LAN. Why expect a 12th grade=
=20
>>>chemistry teacher to stream the same video four times a day to use with=
=20
>>>four sections? If a college professor assigns prep work for a class=20
>>>that includes viewing a specific video on exothermic dynamics, is it=20
>>>cost effective to build out a college dorm network to handle 30 to 200=20
>>>simultaneous MPEG 2 streams at 15MB/s? A moot point no doubt since the=20
>>>number of professors inclined to take advantage of that option is=20
>>>infinitesimally small.
>>>
>>>Downloading the entire NEXUS data base over I2 in 37 seconds holds great=
=20
>>>advantages, but the magic cookie of using MPEG 2 for video streaming and=
=20
>>>storage, ceased upon by the general and educational press, continues to=
=20
>>>amaze me. Just the size of the files reduces the number of titles that=
=20
>>>can be held on the library server.
>>>
>>>At long last, have we have lost sight of the mission? We are content=20
>>>providers. Yes, I would like my 158 schools to have OC-16 access=20
>>>speeds. But I would rather they be more concerned about the quality of=
=20
>>>the content. Meanwhile, k12 producers invest more in digital issues=20
>>>with less to put into replacing dated productions. The regional centers=
=20
>>>invest more in digital/IP infrastructure and less in content acquisition.
>>>
>>>This is could be worse than switching from acetate to Estar=AE, and THAT=
=20
>>>was going to end the world as we know it . . .
>>>
>>>M. Richie
>>>Department of Redundancy Department
>>>
>>>"Having lost sight of our mission, we have redoubled our efforts."
>>> NJ Department of Education
>>>
>>>
>>>Mark W. Kopp wrote:
>>>
>>>>For those of you who are interested in IP delivery of Digitized Video,=
=20
>>>>this should be of great interest. Internet2 is the next step in IP=20
>>>>evolution. It provides for astronomical download speeds and is being=20
>>>>developed by the educational community, primarily at the University=
level.
>>>>
>>>>The speeds of I2 are so fast that with an I2 connection, you could=20
>>>>download a full 4.5 gig DVD (that's a DVD, not a CD) in less than 3=20
>>>>seconds! It might not be feasible for most institutions right now, but=
=20
>>>>it is the future of the web. This would allow full motion streaming to=
=20
>>>>be the norm rather than a wish.
>>>>
>>>>The link provided is to an article from eschoolnews, an e-zine for=20
>>>>educators, so you'll have to enter your name and register to view the=20
>>>>article...but it's well worth your time.
>>>>
>>>>Announcement of I2 availability to K-12 institutions:
>>>>http://www.eschoolnews.com/news/showStory.cfm?ArticleID=3D344&ref=3Dwo=
=20
>>>><http://www.eschoolnews.com/news/showStory.cfm?ArticleID=3D344&ref=3Dwo>=
=20
>>>><http://www.eschoolnews.com/news/showStory.cfm?ArticleID=3D344&ref=3Dwo=
=20
>>>><http://www.eschoolnews.com/news/showStory.cfm?ArticleID=3D344&ref=3Dwo>=
>
>>>>
>>>>************************************************************************=
****=20
>>>>
>>>>Mark W. Kopp
>>>>Circulation Coordinator
>>>>Appalachia Intermediate Unit 8
>>>>Instructional Materials Services Department
>>>>580 Foot of Ten Road
>>>>Duncansville, Pa 16635
>>>>(814) 695-1972 Phone
>>>>(814) 695-3018 Fax
>>>>E-Address:
>>>>mailto:iu8film@iu08.org
>>>>See us on the Web at:
>>>>http://www.iu08.org <http://www.iu08.org/>
>>>>Click on; "Instructional Materials Services"
>>>
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>Videolib mailing list
>>>Videolib@library.berkeley.edu
>>>http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/videolib
>>
>>**************************************************************************=
**
>>Mark W. Kopp
>>Circulation Coordinator
>>Appalachia Intermediate Unit 8
>>Instructional Materials Services Department
>>580 Foot of Ten Road
>>Duncansville, Pa 16635
>>(814) 695-1972 Phone
>>(814) 695-3018 Fax
>>E-Address:
>>mailto:iu8film@iu08.org
>>See us on the Web at:
>>http://www.iu08.org
>>Click on; "Instructional Materials Services"
>>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Videolib mailing list
>Videolib@library.berkeley.edu
>http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/videolib

****************************************************************************
Mark W. Kopp
Circulation Coordinator
Appalachia Intermediate Unit 8
Instructional Materials Services Department
580 Foot of Ten Road
Duncansville, Pa 16635
(814) 695-1972 Phone
(814) 695-3018 Fax
E-Address:
mailto:iu8film@iu08.org
See us on the Web at:
<http://www.iu08.org>http://www.iu08.org
Click on; "Instructional Materials Services"

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

...Not to mention all the time your or I would have to spend, justifying the expense to our supervisors/administration...without regard to whether or not it was effective.

Instead of dropping T1 lines, maybe they should look at dropping the expense of cucumbers and condoms for those oh-so-popular initiatives...or maybe...maybe I should stop there. I would be applying logic to a situation that...ok...maybe I should stop there, too. I'm not all that popular in some circles, as it is.

Keep dreaming...

Mark
********************************************
At 03:49 PM 7/31/03 -0400, you wrote:

Mark, you gotta work on that stutter.    Point understood.  Last time I looked they wanted $20,000 too, so the cost of entry hasn't come down. When I first saw the Release posted a couple of years back I couldn't believe they were serious.  I still can't believe it.  A k12 district or IU has to have an innovative digital product or system they are willing to share with the group AND has to put $20,000 into the pot.!   You and I have to stop all this pipe dreaming, . . . high-speed- fiber-optic-pipe-dreaming, yea, that's the ticket, big fiberpipedreaming . . .  but lookit.   We're back to taking about speed, last mile costs, IP2 formats . . .  what will be the nature of the content in the pipe?  who will produce it?  will anybody be willing to pay for it if they produce it? . . .  . . geez that's a lot of questions for someone from new jersey.   OK, back to reality.  Most of our schools ran out of photocopy paper in April and a couple want to drop the T-1 lines back to DSL speed to save money . . . go figure.
Cheers - MLR
"The difficulty of getting anything started increases with the
square of the number of people involved."  Corollary of the Third, Jim MacGregor

Mark W. Kopp wrote:

Mark, Mark, Mark,!!!

My point was the speed, not the format. I know, as well as you, that DVD MPEG2 is not the format for the Internet. I merely offered the comparison, to give those interested, some benchmark of how much info could be moved in a VERY small amount of time.

My opinion is that the standard format of Video delivery has not been developed yet, and will not be developed until the next level of the Internet (whether it is I2, or a cross-breed of current and new pipelines) is FIRMLY established. The last I heard, joining the Abilene Network costs over $20,000 per year! ...and that doesn't include your "last Mile" costs!!!

At this point, I think our dreams are well ahead of technology, or at least ahead of any level of funding that could make it all happen the way we like.

Mark K.
************************************************
At 04:44 PM 7/30/03 -0400, you wrote:

I've been lurking I2 sites for about 4 years and agree that some coordinated effort was needed to upgrade/replace the information goat path that now passes for the Internet.  If only to handle the rapid growth of bandwidth intensive spam from korea.

What I can't  get all warm and fuzzy about is the concept of streaming a DVD Video over I2 or over Ione for that matter.  First of all, why not stream from an MPEG 2 FILE rather than from a DVD Video where mechanical speed limits the transfer rate and adds a labor intensive element? Second, most monitors can't fully resolve the upper quality of MPEG 2, so why take up bandwidth moving image data that is beyond the capacity of the viewing side to use?  Third, streaming a DVD, so far, still can't use the interactive options found in most Feature Film discs. A capacity that has little relevance to the k-12 classroom.  The end result is still  a linear video.

Needing a bigger pipeline to download data or VIDEO FILES was just as inevitable as the need for multilane roads. But the amount of bandwidth being consumed by redundant video streaming instead of a single download is an unnecessary load on the net and the LAN.  Why expect a 12th grade chemistry teacher to stream the same video four times a day to use with four sections?  If a college professor assigns prep work for a class that includes viewing a specific video on exothermic dynamics, is it cost effective to build out a college dorm network to handle 30 to 200 simultaneous MPEG 2 streams at 15MB/s? A moot point no doubt since the number of professors inclined to take advantage of that option is infinitesimally small.

Downloading the entire NEXUS data base over I2 in 37 seconds holds great advantages, but the magic cookie of using MPEG 2 for video streaming and storage, ceased upon by the general and educational press, continues to amaze me.  Just the size of the files reduces the number of titles that can be held on the library server. 

At long last, have we have lost sight of the mission?  We are content providers.  Yes, I would like my 158 schools to have OC-16 access speeds.  But I would rather they be more concerned about the quality of the content.  Meanwhile, k12 producers invest more in digital issues with less to put into replacing dated productions.  The regional centers invest more in digital/IP infrastructure and less in content acquisition.

This is could be worse than switching from acetate to Estar=AE, and THAT was going to end the world as we know it . . .

M. Richie
Department of Redundancy Department

"Having lost sight of our mission, we have redoubled our efforts."
            &nbs= p;            &n= bsp;            =     NJ Department of Education


Mark W. Kopp wrote:

For those of you who are intereste= d in IP delivery of Digitized Video, this should be of great interest. Internet2 is the next step in IP evolution. It provides for astronomical download speeds and is being developed by the educational community, primarily at the University level.

The speeds of I2 are so fast that with an I2 connection, you could download a full 4.5 gig DVD (that's a DVD, not a CD) in less than 3 seconds! It might not be feasible for most institutions right now, but it is the future of the web. This would allow full motion streaming to be the norm rather than a wish.

The link provided is to an article from eschoolnews, an e-zine for educators, so you'll have to enter your name and register to view the article...but it's well worth your time.

Announcement of I2 availability to K-12 institutions:
http://www.eschoolnews.com/news/showStory.cfm?Ar= ticleID=3D344&ref=3Dwo <http://www.eschoolnews.com/news/showStory.cfm?ArticleID= =3D344&ref=3Dwo> <http://www.eschoolnews.com/news/showStory.cfm?ArticleID= =3D344&ref=3Dwo= <http://www.eschoolnews.com/news/showStory.cfm?ArticleID=3D344&ref= =3Dwo>>

****************************************************************************=
Mark W. Kopp
Circulation Coordinator
Appalachia Intermediate Unit 8
Instructional Materials Services Department
580 Foot of Ten Road
Duncansville, Pa  16635
(814) 695-1972 Phone
(814) 695-3018 Fax
E-Address:
mailto:iu8film@iu08.org
See us on the Web at:
http://www.iu08.org= <http://www.iu08.org/>
Click on;   "Instructional Materials Services"


_______________________________________________
Videolib mailing list
Videolib@library.berkeley.edu
http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/videolib

****************************************************************************=
Mark W. Kopp
Circulation Coordinator
Appalachia Intermediate Unit 8
Instructional Materials Services Department
580 Foot of Ten Road
Duncansville, Pa  16635
(814) 695-1972 Phone
(814) 695-3018 Fax
E-Address:
mailto:iu8film@iu08.org
See us on the Web at:
http://www.iu08.org
Click on;   "Instructional Materials Services"



_______________________________________________
Videolib mailing list
Videolib@library.berkeley.edu
http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/videolib

*************************************************************************= ***
Mark W. Kopp
Circulation Coordinator
Appalachia Intermediate Unit 8
Instructional Materials Services Department
580 Foot of Ten Road
Duncansville, Pa  16635
(814) 695-1972 Phone
(814) 695-3018 Fax
E-Address:
mailto:iu8film@iu08.org
See us on the Web at:
http://www.iu08.org
Click on;   "Instructional Materials= Services"


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