RE: [Videolib] defunct companies

Grace McKay (grace@mermaidstudios.com)
Tue, 25 Mar 2003 17:50:49 -0800

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Is the online search function at LOC considered to be a reliable indication
of the actual copyright status of a title? Or is it necessary to have a
search performed by LOC personnel? Just how much can we rely on the online
results? What would be the absolute correct way to verify a title's status
and ownership?

Grace McKay

-----Original Message-----
From: videolib-bounces@library.berkeley.edu
[mailto:videolib-bounces@library.berkeley.edu]On Behalf Of Jessica Rosner
Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2003 4:16 PM
To: videolib@library.berkeley.edu
Subject: Re: [Videolib] defunct companies

Gary
In past posts you have at least indicated that ANY media product from a
copyrighted feature film to no longer in print to a obscure educational
title would qualify to be copied if it were not currently in print. Also I
don't see the problem in DOING the LOC search it is the RIGHT and LEGAL
thing to do. In most cases you would probably find that much of this
"obscure" material was NOT copyrighted or not renewed and in other cases you
might actually find the rights holder whom you could contact. I don't see
how you can basically say just because an item is not in print and you can't
track the company that once distributed that that is a "reasonable" search.
In reality we ALL know that no studio, or rights holder is going to "catch"
you if you copy every damn title in the collection but if you believe in
protecting the rights of film makers , authors etc it is incumbent upon you
to make a real effort to find a rights holder before copying a work
and to NEVER copy a work where a rights holder REFUSES permission. Just
because Professor A
is distraught that he can't replace a copy of El Norte, Safety Last, (
briefly out on HBO)
an old BBC series or a documentary released in 1966 about a Bolivian Basket
weaving
co-operative that you bought from a company that went out of business in
1972, you don't get to copy it WITHOUT trying to determine it's COPYRIGHT
status.

I know I come off like the big bad wolf on this but I am genuinely startled
that people who
make their life in media are so blithe to violate copyright. For myself and
Kino , I take
a very broad view and make sure to be as generous as possible on copyright
issues.
I think we are one of the few companies that gives poor Canadian libraries
Free PPR
on any title we can because of their highly restrictive laws. But the fact
remains, you
are looking for a justification for copying something that you may well have
no right to do and are not willing to spend to time and money to find out

Jessica
(who is COUNTING the hours to OPENING DAY after which she won't give a
damn
about copyright until October

--
Jessica Rosner
Kino International
333 W 39th St. 503
NY NY 10018
jrosner@kino.com

From: Gary Handman <ghandman@library.berkeley.edu> Reply-To: videolib@library.berkeley.edu Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 15:52:49 -0800 To: videolib@library.berkeley.edu Subject: Re: [Videolib] defunct companies

GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

Look, Jessica...we ain't talking Metropolis here; we're talking non-theatrical product once distributed by a single commercial firm and no longer available in the marketplace. We're talking instances in which a library has acquired a legit copy from said defunct firm and in which the legit copy is either at physical risk or no longer playable on available technology. I will absolutely go to the mat (with Title 17 and the DMCA stuffed in my hip pocket) claiming and fighting for replacement copying and/or format transfer as legitimate under current law. I think it's incumbent upon us to make a documented, good faith effort to identify a current acquisition source, but failing to do this, I say copying is a responsible and institutionally supportable means of preserving our collections. And I say you're wrong about not standing up in court...I've nagged enough legal folk over the years to place my money on my position...

God help us if we leave preservation of the cultural record to the sellers...

At 04:58 PM 3/25/2003 -0500, you wrote: I am going to try this one last time Distributors ARE NOT COPYRIGHT HOLDERS. The ONLY way you can legitimately begin to determine a "rights holder" is to do a COPYRIGHT search from the Library of Congress. All the various sections of copyright law that people have referred to on this list regarding the issue of making copies ALL refer to a reasonable search and if you don't do an LOC search I can guarantee that it would NEVER stand up to legal challenge. There are literally hundreds if not THOUSANDS of defunct media companies and you can't just copy something they USED to sell because THEY went out of business. Titles go in and out of print all the time for a wide variety of reasons and you don't get to copy something because you can't find it currently available. Start with the LOC search and see where it takes you

--
Jessica Rosner
Kino International
333 W 39th St. 503
NY NY 10018
jrosner@kino.com

> From: "Lisa Flanzraich" <LFlanzra@Qc1.Qc.Edu> > Organization: Queens College, CUNY > Reply-To: videolib@library.berkeley.edu > Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 16:13:19 -0500 > To: videolib@library.berkeley.edu > Subject: [Videolib] defunct companies > > If a film distributor is defunct like Films Inc. or CRM -- is it within > copyright > guidelines to make a copy of a tape ? > _______________________________________________ > Videolib mailing list > Videolib@library.berkeley.edu > http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/videolib

_______________________________________________ Videolib mailing list Videolib@library.berkeley.edu http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/videolib

Gary Handman Director Media Resources Center Moffitt Library UC Berkeley ghandman@library.berkeley.edu http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/MRC

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<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3DEmailStyle15><font size=3D2 = color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Is= the online search function at LOC considered to be a reliable indication of = the actual copyright status of a title? Or is it necessary to have a search performed by LOC personnel? Just how much can we rely on the online = results? What would be the absolute correct way to verify a title&#8217;s status and = ownership?<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3DEmailStyle15><font size=3D2 = color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'><!= [if = !supportEmptyParas]>&nbsp;<![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3DEmailStyle15><font size=3D2 = color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Gr= ace McKay<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3DEmailStyle15><font size=3D2 = color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'><!= [if = !supportEmptyParas]>&nbsp;<![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 = color=3Dblack face=3DTahoma><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black'>-----Original Message-----<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b> videolib-bounces@library.berkeley.edu [mailto:videolib-bounces@library.berkeley.edu]<b><span = style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Jessica Rosner<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, March 25, = 2003 4:16 PM<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> = videolib@library.berkeley.edu<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [Videolib] = defunct companies</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><![if = !supportEmptyParas]>&nbsp;<![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = color=3Dblack face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Gary<br> In past posts you have at least indicated that ANY media product from a copyrighted feature film to &nbsp;no longer in print to a obscure = educational title would qualify to be copied if it were not currently in print. = &nbsp;Also I don't see the problem in DOING the LOC search it is the RIGHT and = LEGAL thing to do. In most cases you would probably find that much of this &quot;obscure&quot; material was NOT copyrighted or not renewed and in = other cases you might actually find the rights holder whom you could = &nbsp;contact. I don't see how you can basically say just because an item is not in print = and you can't track the company that once distributed that that is a &quot;reasonable&quot; search.<br> In reality we ALL know that no studio, or rights holder is going to &quot;catch&quot; you if you copy every damn title in the collection but = if you believe in protecting the rights of film makers , authors etc it is = incumbent upon you to make a real effort to find a rights holder before copying a = work<br> and to NEVER copy a work where a rights holder REFUSES permission. Just = because Professor A<br> is distraught that he can't replace a copy of El Norte, Safety Last, ( = briefly out on HBO)<br> an old BBC series or a documentary released in 1966 about a Bolivian = Basket weaving<br> co-operative that you bought from a company that went out of business in = 1972, you don't get to copy it WITHOUT trying to determine it's COPYRIGHT = status.<br> <br> I know I come off like the big bad wolf on this but I am genuinely = startled that people who<br> make their life in media are so blithe to violate copyright. For myself = and Kino , I take<br> a very broad view and make sure to be as generous as possible on = copyright issues.<br> I think we are one of the few companies that gives poor Canadian = libraries Free PPR<br> on any title we can because of their highly restrictive laws. But the = fact remains, you<br> are looking for a justification for copying something that you may well = have no right to do and are not willing to spend to time and money to find = out<br> <br> Jessica<br> (who &nbsp;is &nbsp;COUNTING the hours to OPENING DAY after which she = won't give a damn<br> about copyright until October<br> <br> -- <br> Jessica Rosner<br> Kino International<br> 333 W 39th St. 503<br> NY NY 10018<br> jrosner@kino.com</span></font><font color=3Dblack><span = style=3D'color:black; mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'margin-right:.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom: 12.0pt;margin-left:1.0in'><font size=3D3 color=3Dblack face=3D"Times New = Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>From: </span></b>Gary Handman &lt;ghandman@library.berkeley.edu&gt;<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Reply-To: = </span></b>videolib@library.berkeley.edu<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Date: </span></b>Tue, 25 Mar 2003 = 15:52:49 -0800<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To: = </span></b>videolib@library.berkeley.edu<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject: </span></b>Re: [Videolib] = defunct companies</span></font><font color=3Dblack><span = style=3D'color:black;mso-color-alt: windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = color=3Dblack face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><![if = !supportEmptyParas]>&nbsp;<![endif]></span></font><font color=3Dblack><span = style=3D'color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font><= /p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'margin-right:.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:=

auto;margin-left:1.0in'><font size=3D4 color=3Dblack face=3D"Times New = Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:13.5pt;color:black'>GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR<br> <br> </span></font><font color=3Dblack><span style=3D'color:black'>Look, = Jessica...we ain't talking <i><span style=3D'font-style:italic'>Metropolis = </span></i>here; we're talking non-theatrical product once distributed by a single = commercial firm and no longer available in the marketplace. &nbsp;&nbsp;We're = talking instances in which a library has acquired a legit copy from said defunct = firm and in which the legit copy is either at physical risk or no longer = playable on available technology. &nbsp;I will absolutely go to the mat (with Title = 17 and the DMCA stuffed in my hip pocket) claiming and fighting for replacement copying and/or format transfer as legitimate under current law. &nbsp;I = think it's incumbent upon us to make a documented, good faith effort to = identify a current acquisition source, but failing to do this, I say copying is a responsible and institutionally supportable means of preserving our collections.<br> And I say you're wrong about not standing up in court...I've nagged = enough legal folk over the years to place my money on my position...<br> <br> God help us if we leave preservation of the cultural record to the = sellers... <br> <br> At 04:58 PM 3/25/2003 -0500, you wrote:</span></font><font = color=3Dblack><span style=3D'color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font><= /p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'margin-right:1.0in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.5in'><font size=3D3 = color=3Dblack face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>I = am going to try this one last time<br> Distributors ARE NOT COPYRIGHT HOLDERS. The ONLY way you can = legitimately<br> begin to determine a &quot;rights holder&quot; is to do a COPYRIGHT = search from the<br> Library of Congress. All the various sections of copyright law that = people<br> have referred to on this list regarding the issue of making copies = ALL<br> refer to a reasonable search &nbsp;and if you don't do an LOC search I = can<br> guarantee that it would NEVER stand up to legal challenge.<br> There are literally hundreds if not THOUSANDS of defunct media = companies<br> and you can't just copy something they USED to sell because THEY went = out of<br> business. &nbsp;Titles go in and out of print all the time for a wide = variety of<br> reasons and you don't get to copy something because you can't find = it<br> currently available. Start with the LOC search and see where it takes = you<br> -- <br> Jessica Rosner<br> Kino International<br> 333 W 39th St. 503<br> NY NY 10018<br> jrosner@kino.com<br> <br> &gt; From: &quot;Lisa Flanzraich&quot; &lt;LFlanzra@Qc1.Qc.Edu&gt;<br> &gt; Organization: Queens College, CUNY<br> &gt; Reply-To: videolib@library.berkeley.edu<br> &gt; Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 16:13:19 -0500<br> &gt; To: videolib@library.berkeley.edu<br> &gt; Subject: [Videolib] defunct companies<br> &gt; <br> &gt; If a film distributor is defunct like Films Inc. or CRM -- is it = within<br> &gt; copyright <br> &gt; guidelines to make a copy of a tape ?<br> &gt; _______________________________________________<br> &gt; Videolib mailing list<br> &gt; Videolib@library.berkeley.edu<br> &gt; http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/videolib<br> <br> _______________________________________________<br> Videolib mailing list<br> Videolib@library.berkeley.edu<br> http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/videolib</span></font><font color=3Dblack><span = style=3D'color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font><= /p>

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auto;margin-left:1.0in'><font size=3D3 color=3Dblack face=3D"Times New = Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><br> Gary Handman<br> Director<br> Media Resources Center<br> Moffitt Library<br> UC Berkeley<br> ghandman@library.berkeley.edu<br> http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/MRC </span></font><font color=3Dblack><span style=3D'color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font><= /p>

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