Re: copyright question

Jessica Rosner (jrosner@kino.com)
Fri, 28 Feb 2003 13:50:12 -0800 (PST)

I don't know how much 16mm you did purchase but as far as I know
ALL STUDEO FILMS as well as those by us little folks ( Kino, New Yorker.
the late Films Inc etc) were ALWAYS sold either for a specific term
or life of print. It is virtually unimiginable that anyone would have
a copyrighted feature not made this way. You are correct that this would be
a contract issue, but again I still think it is crazy to think you could
ever copy a studio or feature film under any cirumstances
-- 
Jessica Rosner
Kino International
333 W 39th St. 503
NY NY 10018
jrosner@kino.com

> From: Gary Handman <ghandman@library.berkeley.edu> > Reply-To: videolib@library.berkeley.edu > Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 13:22:49 -0800 (PST) > To: Multiple recipients of list <videolib@library.berkeley.edu> > Subject: Re: copyright question > > --=====================_18768250==_.ALT > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > > Nuts, maybe...but i think we've been cowed by copyright paranoia and > bullied by media content owners for so long that we (that's we, as in > librarians) tend to automatically roll over and play dead or to throw away > whatever slim fair use rights we do have. If I sign a commercial contract > that says "Life of film" and if my film dies an ignominious death, it's a > matter of my adhering to contract law, not copyright (which allows me to > make a preservation copy under certain conditions). In such a case, I'll > adhere to my contract obligations. If, on the other hand, I've purchased a > work that is not otherwise governed by contract conditions, you damn well > better believe I'm going to take the prerogative to act on the rights > granted to me by Title 117 and make a useable copy for my clients. > > > At 01:03 PM 2/28/2003 -0800, you wrote: >> Gary >> Our lasts posts crossed but let me put this as nice as I know how >> I THINK YOU ARE NUTS to say that it is ok to copy a 16mm just because >> a rights holder HAS CHOSEN not release it on video or another format >> THOSE RIGHTS BELONG TO THE COPYRIGHT HOLDER. If you seriously believe that >> because a library had LIFE OF PRINT lease on a FEATURE film OWNED BY A >> STUDIO it can make a VIDEO copy if the print is breaking down , than I think >> you need some redial copyright study. Forgetting the studios for a minute I >> will give a Kino example, We own the rights to two important and rare films >> which in fact were ONLY available in 16mm, THE EMPEROR'S NAKED ARMY MARCHES >> ON by Hara and the short AMERICAN BOY by Martin Scorsese. We did do one life >> of print lease on each title but WE HAVE NO RIGHT TO PUT THEM ON VIDEO. >> Supposing we could not "replace" the 16mm copies is they were degrading, you >> advocate giving the library a right to make a video which even WE don't >> have rights for. Also suppose you COULD replace a 16mm but given today's lab >> cost and the fact that it might have to be re-timed it might cost $3,000 >> or more for one film. >> I can not emphasize too strongly that you would NEVER have the right to make >> a video copy of copyrighted feature film WITHOUT the right's holders >> permission. I assure you that this is not just my "guess " when this issue >> came up before, I consulted two of the best copyright authorities who have >> NOTHING to do with MPAA or studios and they both laughed at the idea >> The legal liability you would face in copying a studio picture to video >> would be huge. Again you probably would not get "caught" but it is VERY >> dangerous to suggest you would have ANY legal protection >> -- >> Jessica Rosner >> Kino International >> 333 W 39th St. 503 >> NY NY 10018 >> jrosner@kino.com >> >>> From: Gary Handman <ghandman@library.berkeley.edu> >>> Reply-To: videolib@library.berkeley.edu >>> Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 12:25:24 -0800 (PST) >>> To: Multiple recipients of list <videolib@library.berkeley.edu> >>> Subject: Re: copyright question >>> >>> I'm gonna go out on a limb here, Jessica. A feature film that was legally >>> acquired on 16, is no longer commercially available (with a documented good >>> faith attempt to acquire replacement), and is physically at risk is, in my >>> book, grist for preservation copying (yes, onto video even). You're >>> basically proposing that libraries allow a legally-acquired title in a >>> collection crumble into celluloid and dust because the item is not >>> replaceable and transfer rights are not forthcoming...I say that's not an >>> option for responsible for collection managers. I do it first; cease and >>> desist later... >>> >>> At 12:07 PM 2/28/2003 -0800, you wrote: >>>> We have been through this one. You need to do EVERYTHING in your power to >>>> contact the rights holder to get permission ( which there is almost NO >>>> chance of getting). Basically you can pretty much forget this on feature >>>> films. Just because whatever studio or rights holder has decided not to >>>> release a film on video ( which ITSELF may be an endangered format) NEVER >>>> gives you the right to make a transfer without permission you will never >>>> get. >>>> If you are talking about non-fiction films, it may be more problematic. >>>> You can't just send a letter to last known address of company you got it >>>> from and assume that would cover you legally. You would FIRST have to do >>>> a copyright search to determine if it was copyrighted and to whom. >>>> If AFTER that you made a really good faith but unsuccessful effort to >> locate >>>> copyright holder , you might have a case for a copy but don't delude >>>> yourself into thinking you are "preserving" it for anyone but your own >> use. >>>> Realistically it would cost you a few hundred dollars in time & legal fees >>>> to do the above so it is not very practical >>>> >>>> Basically most media formats have a finite life and when your item >> comes to >>>> the end of its life , that is pretty much it. The VAST majority of >> 16mm were >>>> sold or leased as EITHER a limited term contract ( 7 years) or a "life of >>>> print lease" In NEITHER case would have any legal right to copy it because >>>> it was deteriorating . Them's the breaks >>>> -- >>>> Jessica Rosner >>>> Kino International >>>> 333 W 39th St. 503 >>>> NY NY 10018 >>>> jrosner@kino.com >>>> >>>>> From: Sarah Andrews <sarah-andrews@uiowa.edu> >>>>> Reply-To: videolib@library.berkeley.edu >>>>> Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 11:49:34 -0800 (PST) >>>>> To: Multiple recipients of list <videolib@library.berkeley.edu> >>>>> Subject: Re: copyright question >>>>> >>>>> What if your 16mm has degraded, is nearly unplayable, and you need >> to make >>>>> a preservation copy because it is out of print? >>>>> Do you need to make a 16mm copy again? >>>>> >>>>> Sarah Andrews >>>>> University of Iowa Libraries >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>> >>> Gary Handman >>> Director >>> Media Resources Center >>> Moffitt Library >>> UC Berkeley >>> ghandman@library.berkeley.edu >>> http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/MRC >>> > > Gary Handman > Director > Media Resources Center > Moffitt Library > UC Berkeley > ghandman@library.berkeley.edu > http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/MRC > --=====================_18768250==_.ALT > Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" > > <html> > Nuts, maybe...but i think we've been cowed by copyright paranoia and > bullied by media content owners for so long that we (that's we, as in > librarians) tend to automatically roll over and play dead or to throw > away whatever slim fair use rights we do have.&nbsp; If I sign a > commercial contract that says &quot;Life of film&quot; and if my film > dies an ignominious death, it's a matter of my adhering to <b>contract > law, </b>not copyright (which allows me to make a preservation copy under > certain conditions).&nbsp; In such a case, I'll adhere to my contract > obligations.&nbsp; If, on the other hand, I've purchased a work that is > not otherwise governed by contract conditions, you damn well better > believe I'm going to take the prerogative to act on the rights granted to > me by Title 117 and make a useable copy for my clients.<br> > <br> > <br> > At 01:03 PM 2/28/2003 -0800, you wrote:<br> > <blockquote type=cite cite>Gary<br> > Our lasts posts crossed but let me put this as nice as I know how<br> > I THINK YOU ARE NUTS to say that it is ok to copy a 16mm just > because<br> > a rights holder HAS CHOSEN not release it on video or another > format<br> > THOSE RIGHTS BELONG TO THE COPYRIGHT HOLDER. If you seriously believe > that<br> > because a library had&nbsp; LIFE OF PRINT lease on a FEATURE film OWNED > BY A<br> > STUDIO it can make a VIDEO copy if the print is breaking down , than I > think<br> > you need some redial copyright study. Forgetting the studios for a minute > I<br> > will give a Kino example, We own the rights to two important and rare > films<br> > which in fact were ONLY available in 16mm, THE EMPEROR'S NAKED ARMY > MARCHES<br> > ON by Hara and the short AMERICAN BOY by Martin Scorsese. We did do one > life<br> > of print lease on each title but WE HAVE NO RIGHT TO PUT THEM ON > VIDEO.<br> > Supposing we could not &quot;replace&quot; the 16mm copies is they were > degrading, you<br> > advocate giving the library a right to&nbsp; make a video which even WE > don't<br> > have rights for. Also suppose you COULD replace a 16mm but given today's > lab<br> > cost and the fact that it might have to be re-timed it&nbsp; might cost > $3,000<br> > or more for one film.<br> > I can not emphasize too strongly that you would NEVER have the right to > make<br> > a video copy of copyrighted feature film WITHOUT the right's > holders<br> > permission. I assure you that this is not just my &quot;guess &quot; when > this issue<br> > came up before, I consulted two of the best copyright authorities who > have<br> > NOTHING to do with MPAA or studios and they both laughed at the > idea<br> > The legal liability you would face in copying a studio picture to > video<br> > would be huge. Again you probably would not get &quot;caught&quot; but it > is VERY<br> > dangerous to suggest you would have ANY legal protection<br> > -- <br> > Jessica Rosner<br> > Kino International<br> > 333 W 39th St. 503<br> > NY NY 10018<br> > jrosner@kino.com<br> > <br> > &gt; From: Gary Handman &lt;ghandman@library.berkeley.edu&gt;<br> > &gt; Reply-To: videolib@library.berkeley.edu<br> > &gt; Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 12:25:24 -0800 (PST)<br> > &gt; To: Multiple recipients of list > &lt;videolib@library.berkeley.edu&gt;<br> > &gt; Subject: Re: copyright question<br> > &gt; <br> > &gt; I'm gonna go out on a limb here, Jessica.&nbsp; A feature film that > was legally<br> > &gt; acquired on 16, is no longer commercially available (with a > documented good<br> > &gt; faith attempt to acquire replacement), and is physically at risk is, > in my<br> > &gt; book, grist for preservation copying (yes, onto video > even).&nbsp;&nbsp; You're<br> > &gt; basically proposing that libraries allow a legally-acquired title in > a<br> > &gt; collection crumble into celluloid and dust because the item is > not<br> > &gt; replaceable and transfer rights are not forthcoming...I say that's > not an<br> > &gt; option for responsible for collection managers.&nbsp; I do it first; > cease and<br> > &gt; desist later...<br> > &gt; <br> > &gt; At 12:07 PM 2/28/2003 -0800, you wrote:<br> > &gt;&gt; We have been through this one. You need to do EVERYTHING in your > power to<br> > &gt;&gt; contact the rights holder to get permission ( which there is > almost NO<br> > &gt;&gt; chance of getting). Basically you can pretty much forget this on > feature<br> > &gt;&gt; films. Just because whatever studio or rights holder has decided > not to<br> > &gt;&gt; release&nbsp; a film on video ( which ITSELF may be an > endangered format) NEVER<br> > &gt;&gt; gives&nbsp; you the right to make a transfer without permission > you will never<br> > &gt;&gt; get.<br> > &gt;&gt; If you are talking about non-fiction films, it may be more > problematic.<br> > &gt;&gt; You can't just send a letter to last known address of company > you got it<br> > &gt;&gt; from and assume that would&nbsp; cover you legally. You would > FIRST have to do<br> > &gt;&gt; a copyright search to determine if it was copyrighted and to > whom.<br> > &gt;&gt; If AFTER that you made a really good faith but unsuccessful > effort to locate<br> > &gt;&gt; copyright holder , you might have a case for a copy but don't > delude<br> > &gt;&gt; yourself into thinking you are &quot;preserving&quot; it for > anyone but your own use.<br> > &gt;&gt; Realistically it would cost you a few hundred dollars in time > &amp; legal fees<br> > &gt;&gt; to do the above so it is not very practical<br> > &gt;&gt; <br> > &gt;&gt; Basically most media formats have a finite life and when your > item comes to<br> > &gt;&gt; the end of its life , that is pretty much it. The VAST majority > of 16mm were<br> > &gt;&gt; sold or leased as EITHER a limited term contract ( 7 years) or a > &quot;life of<br> > &gt;&gt; print lease&quot; In NEITHER case would have any legal right to > copy it because<br> > &gt;&gt; it was deteriorating . Them's the breaks<br> > &gt;&gt; --<br> > &gt;&gt; Jessica Rosner<br> > &gt;&gt; Kino International<br> > &gt;&gt; 333 W 39th St. 503<br> > &gt;&gt; NY NY 10018<br> > &gt;&gt; jrosner@kino.com<br> > &gt;&gt; <br> > &gt;&gt;&gt; From: Sarah Andrews &lt;sarah-andrews@uiowa.edu&gt;<br> > &gt;&gt;&gt; Reply-To: videolib@library.berkeley.edu<br> > &gt;&gt;&gt; Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 11:49:34 -0800 (PST)<br> > &gt;&gt;&gt; To: Multiple recipients of list > &lt;videolib@library.berkeley.edu&gt;<br> > &gt;&gt;&gt; Subject: Re: copyright question<br> > &gt;&gt;&gt; <br> > &gt;&gt;&gt; What if your 16mm has degraded, is nearly unplayable,&nbsp; > and you need to make<br> > &gt;&gt;&gt; a preservation copy because it is out of print?<br> > &gt;&gt;&gt; Do you need to make a 16mm copy again?<br> > &gt;&gt;&gt; <br> > &gt;&gt;&gt; Sarah Andrews<br> > &gt;&gt;&gt; University of Iowa Libraries<br> > &gt;&gt;&gt; <br> > &gt;&gt;&gt; <br> > &gt;&gt;&gt; <br> > &gt; <br> > &gt; Gary Handman<br> > &gt; Director<br> > &gt; Media Resources Center<br> > &gt; Moffitt Library<br> > &gt; UC Berkeley<br> > &gt; ghandman@library.berkeley.edu<br> > &gt; > <a href="http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/MRC" > eudora="autourl">http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/MRC</a><br> > &gt; </blockquote><br> > <div>Gary Handman</div> > <div>Director</div> > <div>Media Resources Center</div> > <div>Moffitt Library</div> > <div>UC Berkeley</div> > <div>ghandman@library.berkeley.edu</div> > <a href="http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/MRC" > EUDORA=AUTOURL>http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/MRC</a> > </html> > > --=====================_18768250==_.ALT-- >